[00:00] guybrush: lol i read the whole perl bible from wall, cant remember the term middleware :p
[00:00] creationix: I prefer to call what connect has as "layers" instead of "middleware"
[00:00] creationix: but it's the same thing
[00:00] guybrush: ok
[00:01] davidascher has joined the channel
[00:01] creationix: where was ryah speaking? was the google thing already
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[00:02] jashkenas: creationix: saw from your howtonode article that you've got a new job. What's up with Sencha? And your sencha projects?
[00:02] mjr_: creationix: There's a google node thing tonight.
[00:03] creationix: connect is still a senchalabs project
[00:03] creationix: mjr_: yeah, but I thought it was later
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[00:04] mjr_: creationix: 7PM.   http://www.meetup.com/javascript-9/calendar/15360462/
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[00:04] creationix: jashkenas: but yeah, it's in a little limbo while we figure out who's responsible for what.  Connect isn't going anywhere if that's what you're worried about
[00:04] sivy has joined the channel
[00:05] jashkenas: I'm not worried, just curious about the exodus.
[00:06] creationix: Sencha was super good to me, it just didn't work out
[00:06] serard: Using expressjs, it is possible to have it respond to .get('/*') to say "I want this func to be used for all pages" ?
[00:06] digitalsatori has joined the channel
[00:07] creationix: serard: I think so
[00:07] tj: serard: .get('*') will work
[00:07] serard: okay :)
[00:07] tj: serard: or you can just use middleware, and dont forget you can use regular expressions as well
[00:07] ryah_: creationix: zynga
[00:07] tj: serard: a guy I work with wants to add app.all() so you can have a catchall for all http methods as well
[00:07] serard: I'd like to start creating a cms/cmf (like symfony' diem http://diem-project.org )
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[00:08] tj: serard: i started one a while back (not like that project) but havent had time
[00:08] italic: how can i set a global var so that i can access it when connecting through a debugger?
[00:09] micheil: isaacs: you know, npm list @installed doesn't work anymore?
[00:09] micheil: it's npm list installed
[00:09] isaacs: micheil: yeah, i know
[00:09] micheil: although, iirc, the docs say otherwise
[00:09] serard: I understand, it's pretty time-consuming (I'm now co-lead of diem project since original dev has gone for Sf2 cms/cmf building)
[00:09] isaacs: micheil: check again :)
[00:09] micheil: okay :P
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[00:10] isaacs: micheil: the @ signs were getting really noisy
[00:10] micheil: yeah
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[00:11] creationix: ryah_: cool, I'll bet that was fun
[00:13] _announcer: Twitter: "# NodeJS successfully prikonektilas to # mongoDB and created modelka, you can stop and go read ..." [ru] -- Sokolov Ilya. http://twitter.com/Flcn/status/2514182666715136
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[00:16] sanduz2: do you guys know when that google talk about node will be put up?
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[00:16] bradleymeck: it was up a while ago
[00:16] sanduz2: i think some people above were talking about one that happened today
[00:17] sanduz2: but i did find a nice one on youtube
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[00:18] _announcer: Twitter: "Dav Glass - Node.js, YUI 3 & Dom Manipulation… Oh My! http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2010/04/09/node-js-yui-3-dom-manipulation-oh-my/" -- Craig H. Anderson. http://twitter.com/CootCraig/status/2515439334723584
[00:18] richcollins has joined the channel
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[00:20] sanduz2: man i love that bot, it keeps posting interesting reads
[00:20] spetrea_ has joined the channel
[00:20] sanduz2: every channel needs one of those
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[00:22] mikeal: creationix: you coming to this js meetup tonight?
[00:23] creationix: I have to be on a call at 8:30
[00:23] creationix: I would like to go though
[00:23] mikeal: "on call"
[00:23] creationix: podcast interview
[00:23] mikeal: oh ok
[00:23] mikeal: i was like, why does HP need to handling server crashes :)
[00:23] halfhalo_: hmmm... podcast....
[00:23] creationix: hmm, how close is google to my office
[00:23] mikeal: it starts at 7
[00:23] mikeal: and we're getting there at 6 to go over some node stuff with just matt and gerad and me
[00:24] mikeal: you should come
[00:24] creationix: sure, just let me know how to get in
[00:24] saschagehlich: http://bit.ly/csr0qj << wtf? did you know that google does sth like that?
[00:24] atmos: what determines the chunk-size of an httpClient response ?
[00:25] spetrea has joined the channel
[00:25] sanduz2: where can i watch you all's podcasts?
[00:25] jashkenas: that's just data-uri image content...
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[00:26] creationix: the only one I've been on so far is on thechangelog
[00:26] sanduz2: oh ok
[00:26] jashkenas: way better than lots of little HTTP requests.
[00:26] creationix: sanduz2: this one will be http://herdingcode.com/
[00:26] _announcer: Twitter: "But Perl / PHP / Ruby / Python you go, node.js guess. It is the most powerful JavaScript." [ja] -- 本城 博昭. http://twitter.com/honjo2/status/2517461601624064
[00:26] saschagehlich: jashkenas: well yes, but they are doing some strange previews for every search result now... did you know that?
[00:26] sanduz2: thanks
[00:27] jashkenas: yeah -- those are crazy.
[00:27] sanduz2: that website looks pretty cool, i love this channel
[00:28] sanduz2: you all are just full of good links
[00:28] _announcer: Twitter: "writing a blog engine with rails, a chat server in node.js --&gt; the Stairway to Heaven of each respective platform." -- Michael Neale. http://twitter.com/michaelneale/status/2517946668683264
[00:28] creationix: anybody know where in node's source loads the internal js files?
[00:29] creationix: I have an idea to make it faster, but I'm having trouble navigating the C source
[00:29] micheil: yeah
[00:29] micheil: node.cc
[00:29] micheil: it's in a few places in there
[00:29] micheil: bbiam. coffee.
[00:29] creationix: micheil: thanks
[00:30] _announcer: Twitter: "oh, and did I mention that scores will be updated in realtime? #nodejs" -- Dan Panzarella. http://twitter.com/dpanzarella/status/2518524157239296
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[00:35] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: Building a Simple Web Service [Video Tutorial] http://ow.ly/19UzdK" -- aigatoledo. http://twitter.com/aigatoledo/status/2519761304948736
[00:36] serard: good night everybody, keep node.js rockin' :)
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[00:45] _announcer: Twitter: "Church Crunch Take Part in the Node.js Book Project - Node.js is an impressive framework for building network-enable... http://ow.ly/19Uv6G" -- Chelsea. http://twitter.com/wearitwednesday/status/2522312276443136
[00:46] _richcollins has joined the channel
[00:48] mikeal: creationix1: just meet us at Building 40 at 6pm
[00:48] mikeal: you have my cell number right?
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[00:53] _announcer: Twitter: "node.js installed on my EC2 server, let's start experimenting." -- James Rodrigues. http://twitter.com/JamesWatch/status/2524309226524672
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[01:02] _announcer: Twitter: "Srsly &lt;3 my macbook, but if I can't add a widget while tweeting, running redis, node.js, chrome, safari, mail and chat, why bother? #killMe" -- Tim Jarratt. http://twitter.com/Tim_jarratt/status/2526529720418304
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[01:03] creationix1: mikeal: I don't think I have your number
[01:07] jvolkman has joined the channel
[01:08] jvolkman: is there a way to extend Error and make more specific Error types?
[01:09] bradleymeck: set a function's prototype to new Error, and viola
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[01:10] bradleymeck: v8: function MyError(){};MyError.prototype = new Error;var x = new MyError;[ x instanceof Error, x instanceof MyError ]
[01:10] v8bot: bradleymeck: [true, true]
[01:10] MikhX has joined the channel
[01:11] tj: jvolkman: https://gist.github.com/671813
[01:11] tj: for example
[01:11] jvolkman: bradleymeck: The thing about that is that the error still comes out as "Error" in the stacktrace
[01:11] jvolkman: not "MyError"
[01:11] jvolkman: thanks, tj
[01:12] cardona507: YUI & node = wow
[01:12] cardona507: *node.js that is
[01:12] jvolkman: guess captureStackTrace is the key
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[01:12] isaacs: cardona507: i know, pretty neat, huh?
[01:12] MikhX_ has joined the channel
[01:12] cardona507: this yui conference has blown my mind
[01:12] isaacs: cardona507: yui3 is a very well-factored system.  makes it well positioned to take advantage of stuff like nodejs
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[01:13] _announcer: Twitter: "node.js in google and come in interesting http://d.hatena.ne.jp/kuenishi/20101013/1286973687&#39;s page." [ja] -- masapon. http://twitter.com/masapon_2/status/2529329544175618
[01:13] jesusabdullah: Come in interesting, eh?
[01:14] cardona507: yeah bartt is building our new platform on node.js and YUI. Part of the reason I came to YUI conf was to come up to speed. Guess I'll be getting to know YUI a lot better after today.
[01:14] cardona507: i had no idea that there was such a strong team at yahoo
[01:14] cardona507: pretty impressed
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[01:16] cardona507: the browser is such a bottleneck to badassness
[01:16] bradleymeck: yahoo is amazing, just not well publicized
[01:17] micheil: YUI is awesome.
[01:17] ajsie: bradleymeck: what is yahoo's core business?
[01:17] micheil: mail
[01:17] cardona507: ha
[01:17] cardona507: fantasy league football?
[01:17] micheil: or at least, that's what I was told about 6 months ago
[01:17] ajsie: what are they doing?
[01:17] micheil: mail, followed by search and developer apis
[01:17] cardona507: thats what my roommates use anyway
[01:18] bradleymeck: ajsie, they provide many services. mail in general, but social services (not networking per say)
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[01:18] micheil: ajsie: they do a heap of different things, but the core of revenue is in mail / advertising
[01:18] bradleymeck: maps/search but powered by bing
[01:18] ajsie: they is that big because of their mail service? =)
[01:19] ajsie: didn't know that
[01:19] ajsie: i wonder how much revenues they have compared to google
[01:19] cardona507: no their that big because of douglas crockford -BOOM
[01:19] bradleymeck: you can always look it up
[01:19] bradleymeck: 
ACTION dies a little inside

[01:19] cardona507: :)
[01:20] micheil: yahoo has thousands more of really talented devs, other then crockford
[01:20] bradleymeck: yep
[01:20] ajsie: but it's all about google soon
[01:20] cardona507: true
[01:20] ajsie: they will take over the world with skynet =)
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[01:38] _announcer: Twitter: "Wrong. The node.js. NoseJS is that. The nose is a JS library to test." [ja] -- hikozaemon. http://twitter.com/hkzm/status/2535615937650688
[01:39] muk_mb has joined the channel
[01:39] _announcer: Twitter: "@danbenjamin I call it "MongoDB and node.js" http://youtu.be/bjZqZWbmXK4" -- potch. http://twitter.com/potch/status/2535849728155648
[01:40] _announcer: Twitter: "Just been messing around with websockets and nodejs for the first time.  Now I don't want to sleep!" -- Lewis Barclay. http://twitter.com/errumm/status/2536146034753536
[01:43] mbrochh has joined the channel
[01:43] _announcer: Twitter: "@mobiuschic42 currently, rewriting my website in node.js." -- Gary Katsevman. http://twitter.com/akumu/status/2536865747959808
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[01:51] _announcer: Twitter: "ended up at Google a little early, waiting for the node.js crew to arrive :)" -- Mikeal. http://twitter.com/mikeal/status/2538925730041856
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[02:03] micheil: pquerna: how close are we to really good ssl support in node?
[02:03] micheil: iirc, something was said about all tests passing, does that include cases not previously tested?
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[02:12] _announcer: Twitter: "#Joyent sponsoring node.js "Node.JS and Joyent Agreement" http://j.mp/ckZSRu #nodejs" -- Pascal Deschênes. http://twitter.com/pdeschen/status/2544215158427648
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[02:28] _announcer: Twitter: "is the hype for Scala is gone (replaced by Nodejs hype) or is it just out of my radar?" -- karl dubost. http://twitter.com/karlpro/status/2548177706156033
[02:28] batasrki has joined the channel
[02:30] Zeph\k0d3: o3-canvas -> upgraded to proper alphablending http://www.blokmodular.com/dev/test36.htm  
[02:31] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js in-browser debugger, fucking A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOnK3NVnxL8" -- Giles. http://twitter.com/gilesgoatboy/status/2548863105769472
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[02:36] _announcer: Twitter: "Installing latest node.js (http://howtonode.org/how-to-install-nodejs) to prep for @herdingCode interview with @creationix tonight." -- Jon Galloway. http://twitter.com/jongalloway/status/2550091483185152
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[02:37] _announcer: Twitter: "@jongalloway It's getting to the point where you have to install node.js just to listen to Herding Code. :)" -- Matt Hamilton. http://twitter.com/mabster/status/2550529494360064
[02:39] _announcer: Twitter: "@gilesgoatboy did you know that anytime you mention Node.js, your tweet shows up in the #node.js channel?" -- Srdjan Pejic. http://twitter.com/batasrki/status/2550957976068097
[02:39] aho: yes.
[02:39] aho: :>
[02:43] _announcer: Twitter: "@batasrki I did not know that. I'm tempted to use it to market penis enlargement pills to the Node.js community" -- Giles. http://twitter.com/gilesgoatboy/status/2551871600328704
[02:43] gkatsev: heh, I got announced at 20:43:31
[02:43] _announcer: Twitter: "free viagra! click here Node.js" -- Giles. http://twitter.com/gilesgoatboy/status/2551947575951360
[02:45] mbrochh: hey guys... what editors do you use to develop node.js applications? 
[02:45] mbrochh: and how do you integrate JSLint into your workflow?
[02:45] batasrki: mbrochh: vim and I use jslint's website
[02:45] aho: there is a jslint addon (called kjslint) for komodo edit/ide
[02:45] batasrki: although I'm sure there's a better way
[02:45] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Gilesgoatboy / ignore _announcer # nodejs" [lv] -- isaacs. http://twitter.com/izs/status/2552533545390081
[02:45] mbrochh: batasrki, you mean you copy and paste your code on a regular basis into the website??
[02:45] aho: i'm using an before save trigger to run it
[02:45] eee_c: emacs and I don't :)
[02:46] aho: whenever i save it runs (and also whenever i press ctrl+alt+j)
[02:46] batasrki: mbrochh: pretty much, yeah, minus the regular basis part
[02:46] mbrochh: aho, wow komodo looks promising... is it fast? or bloated shit like eclipse?
[02:47] aho: it's build on the mozilla platform
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[02:47] eee_c: Although emacs does have the js2 mode that does lint like scanning
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[02:47] aho: takes 40-60 mb depending on how many files you've open
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[02:47] aho: it's fairly lightweight
[02:47] batasrki: mbrochh: komodo edit is pretty fast and fairly lightweight
[02:47] aho: heh
[02:47] batasrki: also free
[02:47] mbrochh: aho, does it have debugging?
[02:48] mbrochh: the website says no... even the IDE does not have debugging for JS?
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[02:48] aho: btw http://stackoverflow.com/questions/473478/vim-jslint
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[02:49] batasrki: aho: yeah I figured there'd be a plugin
[02:50] batasrki: petercooper: isn't it like the middle of night in england right about now?
[02:50] petercooper: Yep
[02:50] petercooper: But hi ;-)
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[02:50] _announcer: Twitter: "Think I'm going to have a play around with #nodeJS to see if it's suitable for my new project." -- Tom Bell. http://twitter.com/therealtombell/status/2553778486124544
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[02:51] aho: there is a js debugger in komodo ide by the looks of it: http://docs.activestate.com/komodo/4.4/debugjs.html
[02:51] mbrochh: from what the website advertises it doesnt debug JS
[02:52] mbrochh: oh
[02:52] mbrochh: it does
[02:52] batasrki: hello
[02:52] batasrki: petercooper: have you found any use for node yet?
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[02:54] petercooper: I haven't been actively looking, just enjoying fiddling with it here and there. I have a couple of ideas for when my JavaScript-fu is stronger.
[02:54] mikeal has joined the channel
[02:54] batasrki: petercooper: shareable ideas?
[02:55] skawful: Is anyone else having problems with npm tonight?
[02:55] petercooper: Nothing out of the ordinary - multiplayer games server, distributed testing, somehow doing some node/Ruby integration
[02:57] _announcer: Twitter: ""Option #2 is Not Fun. So eff that noise. That sucks, and is dumb." haha, love it! http://howtonode.org/introduction-to-npm #nodejs" -- Steven Harman. http://twitter.com/stevenharman/status/2555358295883776
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[02:58] Zeph\k0d3: o3-canvas -> http://www.blokmodular.com/dev/test37.htm text shadows.  (compare with http://www.blokmodular.com/dev/graphics-tests-in-browser.html ) 
[02:58] petercooper: batasrki: I also need to check out the Redis options, I suspect there are some interesting opportunities there.
[02:59] batasrki: petercooper: between redis and node or just redis in general
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[02:59] bradleymeck: is there an easy way we could bridge ruby and node with something like liveconnect? all the embed stuff I have seen is rather nasty
[02:59] petercooper: Both. Though saying that, it's not as if you get any more scale considering it's single threaded anyway ;-)
[02:59] petercooper: bradleymeck: I've not found anything yet, though RubyRacer does a good job direct to V8.
[03:00] _announcer: Twitter: "Doing some reading on node.js while listening to Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and enjoying a velvety nespresso." -- Hernan Garcia. http://twitter.com/theprogrammer/status/2556360428355584
[03:01] petercooper: Like a lot of people (I suspect) I'm still in the "walking round gazing at the ceiling in amazement" stage of waiting for inspiration to strike regarding Node ;-)
[03:01] _announcer: Twitter: "At the Node.js meetup at the Google Campus. This campus is huge and swarming with people. http://bit.ly/b3FvaQ" -- Paul Armstrong. http://twitter.com/paularmstrong/status/2556540322058240
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[03:02] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent Node - nodejs http://yoolink.to/exZ" [pl] -- woan. http://twitter.com/woan/status/2556780206891008
[03:02] batasrki: I think github's idea of using node to handle file uploads is a good one, and one I'll probably use
[03:03] petercooper: Yeah, it's appealing to have a feature like that on a separate system/daemon anyway due to the potential for flakiness
[03:03] atmos: 
ACTION is sneaking more node into github right now :)

[03:04] batasrki: atmos: can you expand on that or we gotta wait for the announcement?
[03:05] petercooper: Node seems more well suited to making non-HTTP daemons than any other dynamic language I've tried. But that might be ignorance talking.
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[03:05] Dreamer3__: can anyone help me get eco installed?
[03:05] Dreamer3__: trying to use npm
[03:06] Dreamer3__: http://pastie.org/1288868
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[03:10] indutny: hi everyone!
[03:10] petercooper: hi
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[03:14] _announcer: Twitter: "@foxxtrot YUI + YQL + NodeJS I bet." -- Eric Ferraiuolo. http://twitter.com/ericf/status/2559781067816960
[03:16] eee_c: Dreamer3__:  Hrm... npm packages seem to have bad URLs (http://packages:5984/foo).
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[03:16] eee_c: Should be able to install with full URLs
[03:16] Dreamer3__: eee_c: i see that the url sucks, but i'm not sure what to do about that
[03:16] eee_c: npm install http://registry.npmjs.org/eco/-/eco-1.0.0.tgz
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[03:17] eee_c: Depending on what packages you already have installed, you may need to also do this first:
[03:17] eee_c: npm install http://registry.npmjs.org/strscan/-/strscan-1.0.1.tgz
[03:17] batasrki: hey eee_c 
[03:17] eee_c: npm install http://registry.npmjs.org/coffee-script/-/coffee-script-0.9.4.tgz
[03:17] batasrki: how goes
[03:18] eee_c: Goes well :)
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[03:18] eee_c: Hacking nodejs on my new macbook air running Ubuntu. Doesn't get much better than that.
[03:18] petercooper: Running Ubuntu native or under VM?
[03:18] Dreamer3__: eee_c: what does npm have that weird path? can i change it?
[03:19] eee_c: Native.
[03:19] eee_c: Weird how? With the dash?
[03:19] petercooper: Ubuntu coping well with the Air and the various bits of Apple "magic"?
[03:20] eee_c: Surprisingly well, actually.
[03:20] Dreamer3__: registry = "http://registry.npmjs.org/"
[03:20] Dreamer3__: in my npm config
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[03:20] petercooper: Cool. I'm always worried it'd massacre the battery life or something.
[03:21] eee_c: I get ~4 hours.  It's supposed to get 5 hours (the 11 inch)
[03:21] Dreamer3__: the registry seems to have the right urls
[03:21] Dreamer3__: eee_c: i get a lot more than that
[03:21] petercooper: I think everyone I know who's gone for the new Air has gone for the 11" :)
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[03:22] eee_c: I'll take it since I get the awesome hardware with a decent os ;)
[03:22] _announcer: Twitter: "@gilesgoatboy yeah, that blew my mind when I saw it for node.js. The biggest problem with node is that its so new everything keeps changing" -- Brian Smith. http://twitter.com/brianthecoder/status/2561704219119616
[03:22] eee_c: Dreamer3__: on the 11 inch?
[03:22] Dreamer3__: eee_c: yeah
[03:22] Dreamer3__: 5+
[03:23] Dreamer3__: i haven't tried to run it down though
[03:23] Dreamer3__: it's no ipad, but better than i expected
[03:23] eee_c: I'm happy w/ 4, but I'll definitely be looking to tune things to get closer to 5+
[03:24] eee_c: The registry has the right URLs, but the registry refers to individual package URLs that are messed up.
[03:24] eee_c: The eco package: http://registry.npmjs.org/eco/
[03:25] eee_c: That's where the http://packages:5984 url is coming from.
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[03:25] eee_c: Something's wrong with the registry right now.
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[03:27] petercooper: You could cheat and add an entry to /etc/hosts ;-)
[03:28] batasrki: eee_c: you could always recompile Ubuntu's kernel to get it smaller, that should increase the batter life
[03:28] batasrki: battery too
[03:28] jashkenas: Dreamer3__: you can always grab it from github.
[03:28] eee_c: There's a bug already open for it: https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/issue/362
[03:29] Dreamer3__: yes but i'm not quite sure where i want to put it
[03:29] Dreamer3__: just playing with node for the first time
[03:30] eee_c: Picked a bad night to get started it seems ;)
[03:30] indutny: Hey guys
[03:30] eee_c: But the manual URL installs that I gave earlier should work.
[03:30] indutny: do you want to know some info about template engine that is fater that mustache in 6 times
[03:30] indutny: ?
[03:30] Dreamer3__: eee_c: they have a few dependencies
[03:30] Dreamer3__: eee_c: indeed :(
[03:31] batasrki: I don't want a fatter template engine, I don't know about the rest of people here, :p
[03:31] jashkenas: indutny: mustache is very slow. 6 times faster than it is not a big deal ;)
[03:31] bradleymeck: yea, eco is fast
[03:31] bradleymeck: i barely beat it with some really optimized code gen
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[03:32] jashkenas: the template bakeoff keeps growing...
[03:32] jashkenas:  http://jsperf.com/dom-vs-innerhtml-based-templating/32
[03:34] bradleymeck: yea eco is around 50% an ideal template from what I could figure, which is actually amazing
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[03:36] Dreamer3__: eee_c: looks like the registry is giving back shitty urls
[03:36] Dreamer3__: that sucks
[03:37] eee_c: Yup.
[03:37] eee_c: Which dependencies aren't resolved for the URLs I gave?
[03:38] eee_c: strscan and coffee script were the only ones I needed...
[03:39] Dreamer3__: eee_c: thanks, those 3 things worked
[03:39] Dreamer3__: i didn't see them all before :)
[03:40] eee_c: Cool!
[03:40] davidc_ has joined the channel
[03:41] eee_c: Not ideal to have to do it manually, but hopefully Isaac will have this resolved before long.
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[03:48] _announcer: Twitter: "Seriously, if NodeJS/Ruby fibers seem neat to you, head over to http://bit.ly/dCqcnQ to get your mind blown." -- brain. http://twitter.com/brai_lee87/status/2568361179348992
[03:50] sivy has joined the channel
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[03:53] sivy: any node-mongo-native users around
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[03:53] ajsie: do you guys documentate your code?
[03:54] ajsie: if yes, with what tool?
[03:54] jamund has joined the channel
[03:55] _announcer: Twitter: "#NodeJS up and running on Windows using Cygwin." -- Tom Bell. http://twitter.com/therealtombell/status/2570089270345728
[03:56] jamund: Anyone have suggestions on hosting node stuff for free or cheap? The joyent thing seemed cool, but I've waited and waited and still don't seem to have any coupon codes. Any ideas?
[03:57] jamund: (my only paid hosting is on dreamhost, which doesn't let you run deamons)
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[03:58] _announcer: Twitter: "it appears that there are a few node.js jobs out there: http://bit.ly/cWoLS9" -- John Hann. http://twitter.com/unscriptable/status/2570845633384448
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[04:04] _announcer: Twitter: "We're talking to @creationix (howtonode.org) about node.js tonight on #herdingCode. Questions / comments?" -- herdingcode. http://twitter.com/herdingcode/status/2572233713123328
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[04:05] jashkenas: ajsie: docco.
[04:06] eee_c: jamund: I use linode. Dunno if that qualifies as cheap, but it's damn nice.
[04:06] jamund: eee_c: what's the monthly?
[04:07] JimBastard has joined the channel
[04:07] eee_c: $20
[04:07] shaver: where's mikael?
[04:07] shaver: I HAVE NEED OF HIM
[04:07] JimBastard: $19.99
[04:07] jamund: not terrible. hmkay.
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[04:07] halfhalo_: 
ACTION has two linodes

[04:07] ajsie: jashkenas: its just for coffeescript?
[04:07] eee_c: You can get get a discount for an annual subscription.
[04:08] jashkenas: ajsie: for JavaScript as well. You can npm install docco.
[04:08] jashkenas: There's also dox.
[04:08] johngbrooks has joined the channel
[04:08] jamescarr: hmmm
[04:09] jamescarr: what does the resource portion of a websocket map to?
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[04:09] shaver: what's the node.js equivalent of python's "if module == __main__"?
[04:10] sivy: shaver: if (!module.parent)
[04:11] jamescarr: sivy, oh jeeze
[04:11] jamescarr: learn something new everyday 
[04:11] bradleymeck: shaver, require.main will be a truthy if it is the main module
[04:11] sivy: w00t
[04:11] _announcer: Twitter: "@dcian true. but i don think IO centric callback code written for node.js bears any resmblnce to JS libraries like JQuery etc.." -- Arun Suresh (KuTtZ). http://twitter.com/arun_suresh/status/2574137952309248
[04:11] shaver: bradleymeck: sold
[04:12] rbranson: TypeError: Converting circular structure to JSON
[04:12] rbranson: bah, why not
[04:12] rbranson: just a little fun circular time
[04:12] bradleymeck: json was not prepared for such intricacies!
[04:13] bradleymeck: someone needs to write a parser of the mozilla syntax for that nonsense
[04:13] shaver: no, we need to get rid of that nonsense in our serialization, I think!
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[04:14] bradleymeck: you could same some pretty hefty lifting computation wise for complex structures if we had it~
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[04:14] bradleymeck: well not really heavy, but multiple models
[04:15] indutny: converting xml to json failed: circular structure was found
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[04:15] shaver: how does XML get a circular structure? o_O
[04:15] indutny: jke
[04:15] bradleymeck: nodelist
[04:15] shaver: oh
[04:15] shaver: DOM, not the serialization
[04:15] shaver: gotcha
[04:15] bradleymeck: dom has tons of that
[04:16] shaver: well yeah, given .parentNode
[04:16] rbranson: yeah, any tree is going to be circular
[04:16] rbranson: (that is what I was trying to stringify, a tree structure)
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[04:17] jamund: two linnodes halfhalo_  that's a lot!
[04:17] bradleymeck: any bidirectional tree haha :)
[04:17] ajsie: no one uses jsdoc or natural docs?
[04:17] indutny: circular tree? :)
[04:17] indutny: i sure you've learned graph theory
[04:17] indutny: ?
[04:17] indutny: :D
[04:17] rbranson: i like pretty graphs in excel
[04:17] indutny: ajsie: i'm using
[04:18] indutny: rbranson: i like graphs in text editors
[04:18] rbranson: makes you feel 31337?
[04:18] rbranson: I like building ASCII graphs and putting them in .nfo files
[04:18] indutny: haha :)
[04:18] indutny: really cool
[04:19] bradleymeck: i like to just write stuff about how it is used separately. using jsdoc etc is nice, but generally me writing out the documentation else where feels more apt since it is out of a code setting and lets me think about other things than the raw operation without distraction
[04:19] ajsie: which one of them?
[04:19] bradleymeck: used natural docs for a while, but got tired of it
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[04:19] ajsie: bradleymeck: is natural docs good?
[04:20] ajsie: or is it better to use jsdoc .. sounds more standard to js
[04:20] bradleymeck: its hard to set up, but clean once done.
[04:21] _announcer: Twitter: "At javascript meetup hosted at Google. Very cool, check out nodejs.org" -- Tara Kelly. http://twitter.com/tara_kelly/status/2576563207933952
[04:21] bradleymeck: as long as you are documenting the pre/post conditions and have a line about what it should be used for rather than GetTable()//returns the table (actually a true comment and sole documentation for a function as part of the rendering engine in WebKit a while back)
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[04:22] shaver: anyone have any experience with the various node mocking libraries?
[04:22] robmason has left the channel
[04:23] bradleymeck: mocking for what? websites?
[04:23] shaver: sorry, object mocking for tests
[04:23] shaver: so I could make a mock redis interface, et.
[04:25] bradleymeck: no idea what that entails
[04:25] bradleymeck: anywho off to bed
[04:27] ajsie: anyone that has used jsdoc for node libraries?
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[04:35] indutny: i've used
[04:35] indutny: http://github.com/donnerjack13589/nTPL
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[04:40] _announcer: Twitter: "11/13 this weekend (Saturday) IWDD in &quot;HTML and CSS on all browsers, real-time previews while writing a Gorigori (node.js in nodejuice)&quot; to Yarimasu. This is a powerful TIps. http://iwdd.net/" [ja] -- Ryo Suzuki. http://twitter.com/suzuryo/status/2581354743078913
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[04:47] rbranson: hmm, this is hot... have the basics of my globbing search trie thing working
[04:48] indutny: what is hot?
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[04:48] rbranson: fast matching against large numbers of pattern matching expressions
[04:48] rbranson: like 1000+
[04:48] indutny: are you talking about nTPL?
[04:49] rbranson: O(log n) ish
[04:49] rbranson: nTPL?
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[04:49] indutny: this is a last message before yours
[04:49] indutny: that's why I'm asking
[04:50] rbranson: nope
[04:50] rbranson: this is for matching like "http://*.example.com/*.html" 
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[04:50] rbranson: to an input string
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[04:52] shaver: hmm
[04:52] shaver: I wonder how to make exports be a constructor
[04:52] shaver: I bet I can't
[04:52] shaver: as in:
[04:52] indutny: module.exports = function() {};
[04:53] shaver: oh, that works?
[04:53] shaver: var Thing = require("Thing"); var t = new Thing(); // ?
[04:53] indutny: ye
[04:53] indutny: yes*
[04:53] shaver: that is pleasing to me
[04:53] shaver: thank you, kind sir
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[04:55] _announcer: Twitter: "I'm having a hell of a time getting multipart form data into #nodejs ... for some reason I only get one data event and nothing else.  GRRR" -- Torgie Madison. http://twitter.com/torgie/status/2585103209332737
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[04:55] rbranson: kekeke
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[05:04] _announcer: Twitter: "@JayCanuck nice... i really wanna learn node.js - what tutorials you read?" -- Brenley Dueck. http://twitter.com/brenelz/status/2587392879894528
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[05:09] _announcer: Twitter: "@brenelz aside from nodejs.org API docs and playing around with code, www.howtonode.org has had some good tips" -- Jason Robitaille. http://twitter.com/JayCanuck/status/2588740845309953
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[05:15] WRA: help, I may do something terrible that I need talked out of
[05:16] indutny: wow
[05:16] WRA: For NodeJS ofc
[05:17] WRA: I'm thinking about sending objects that describe what they are and what child objects they have and have the callbacks defined already. So on the client side it just has to know to render the types of objects
[05:18] WRA: Example: I send a Modal Object that has two field children and a button object, the button object has a callback associated with it that then sends the two fields and some additional data.
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[05:19] Aria: That sounds complicated.
[05:20] WRA: it has alot of pay off
[05:20] indutny: yep, sounds quite complicateed
[05:20] WRA: I only have to write once on the client how to render a modal object/field/button
[05:20] WRA: and then I can reuse those any where and the client won't need specific code for them
[05:20] indutny: so you're building gwt
[05:20] indutny: :)
[05:21] WRA: Actually, I'm just using GWT to render those ;)
[05:21] indutny: haha
[05:21] WRA: but the idea is there is no logic on the client
[05:21] WRA: the logic purely exists in the javascript objects being sent
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[05:24] WRA: It could be pretty useful for user generated content
[05:24] indutny: have you tried jquery.evently?
[05:25] indutny: i think that client-side logic should be placed on a client-side
[05:25] indutny: not retrieved from server dynamically
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[05:25] indutny: (exception is large script file, that can be splitted in smaller files and loaded only when you need some functionality)
[05:27] _announcer: Twitter: "A new way to think about programs: http://tinyurl.com/2c8obc8 #coffeescript #nodejs #docco #programming" -- Juixe Techknow. http://twitter.com/juixe/status/2593118633328640
[05:27] _announcer: Twitter: "@mde Yeah, talking with @creationix about node.js and mentioned Geddy sharing validation code between server & client." -- Scott Koon. http://twitter.com/lazycoder/status/2593192465666048
[05:27] WRA: hmm, so I built a generic multiplayer game framework with Node.JS and a pretty straight forward Canvas Game engine/client for it... also a flash API for it.
[05:28] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: Building a Simple Web Service [Video Tutorial] - Think Vitamin - Welcome to another free video tutorial co… http://bit.ly/cyPP9i" -- Kenneth McCall. http://twitter.com/ellisgl/status/2593373273718784
[05:28] shaver: we were all young once
[05:28] iszak: Nice WRA!
[05:28] WRA: It uses Socket.IO (<3) so WebSockets/Flash Sockets got built into the network server component. I'm still trying to figure out if the dynamic client side code would pay off in the long run
[05:28] iszak: WRA dynamic client side code as in loading JS on-demand?
[05:29] WRA: Sorta, so imagine I send you an update that has an Orc
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[05:30] Crshman: in the docs it has "'index.js' allows one to package a module as a directory." could someone explain that in other terms for me?
[05:30] WRA: the Orc Object would not only give you all the relavent client side data but also implement all actions and flag what input is mapped to those actions
[05:30] Crshman: that is found under the modules section
[05:30] indutny: Crshman: so if you have project with folder "somename"
[05:30] WRA: Crshman, lets say you have a directory named explosions and in it you have index.js
[05:30] indutny: haha
[05:30] indutny: :0
[05:30] WRA: you can then require('./explosions');
[05:30] Crshman: =D
[05:30] indutny: ok, WRA tell him
[05:30] indutny: :)
[05:31] indutny: you can require folder like a file
[05:31] WRA: and it'll use index.js
[05:31] indutny: if it has index.js
[05:31] indutny: :)
[05:31] WRA: this is super power
[05:31] WRA: *powerful
[05:31] WRA: and you chain requires to drill down further into that directory
[05:31] Crshman: and then in index.js you would call all of the other private files (modules?) you may have in that directory?
[05:31] indutny: yep
[05:31] WRA: yeah
[05:31] iszak: Is there a trunk version of Node.JS?
[05:32] iszak: nvm!
[05:32] Crshman: ah ok...sweet I get it! Thanks guys
[05:32] Crshman: I thought that's how it worked, but I wanted to be sure
[05:32] indutny: you're welcome
[05:32] WRA: For example I have a module named data and inside data are two more modules, static and dynamic, inside dynamic are all are my dynamic data types as modules
[05:32] Crshman: and you can drill down infinitely essentially?
[05:32] WRA: yeah
[05:32] Crshman: gotcha
[05:32] Crshman: nice
[05:33] WRA: so I'm a bad man and I use modules for configuration
[05:33] indutny: :)
[05:33] Crshman: now my mom won't yell at me for messy modules =P
[05:33] WRA: since JSON is human readable
[05:33] indutny: that's awfull
[05:33] WRA: I have two files index.js and config.js
[05:33] indutny: oh
[05:33] indutny: that's more pretty
[05:33] Crshman: that's another topic of interest to me, config files
[05:33] WRA: index.js implements all the default values and config.js has the overrides
[05:34] Crshman: is there a way to reload a config on the fly?
[05:34] WRA: its kinda sexy.
[05:34] indutny: i have "modulename" folder
[05:34] Crshman: er, reread a config.js file?
[05:34] indutny: and files like "lib.js", "server.js", etc
[05:34] Crshman: that contains essentially a JSON object
[05:34] indutny: lib.js contains default values
[05:34] WRA: yeah my structure has /config/index.js and /config/config.js
[05:34] indutny: and functions like merge
[05:34] indutny: or etc
[05:34] indutny: while index.js
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[05:34] indutny: is exporting function that taeks options
[05:34] indutny: so I've separate folder
[05:34] WRA: this way you can leave values out of config.js and they'll get the defaults defined in index.js
[05:34] indutny: like run or test
[05:35] WRA: and yeah you can reload modules at any point
[05:35] WRA: any time you require('module') it reloads it
[05:35] iszak: Is node-mysql battle ready yet?
[05:35] indutny: no
[05:35] indutny: WRA: you're wrong
[05:35] WRA: really?
[05:35] indutny: yes
[05:35] indutny: it's caching
[05:35] WRA: ah
[05:35] WRA: thats a good thing then
[05:35] indutny: yes
[05:35] WRA: I just assumed on that one :D
[05:35] Crshman: ok, so how do we reload it?
[05:36] indutny: no way :)
[05:36] indutny: only nodejs 0.3.0
[05:36] indutny: you can clean cache
[05:36] indutny: in 0.2.4 - no way
[05:36] Crshman: oh well I guess i'll have to figure something else out for configs then
[05:36] Crshman: no biggie
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[05:36] WRA: why are you reloading configs during run time?
[05:37] indutny: yeah
[05:37] WRA: that sounds wrong and scary. :D
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[05:37] Crshman: I guess it can be done other ways, I haven't put *that* much thought into it
[05:38] Dreamer3__: is there an express channel?
[05:39] WRA: you have the config object in memory at that point so you can update that and then  fs.writeFile('config.js', 'module.exports='+JSON.stringify(config)); xD oh I'm giving you terrible advice.
[05:39] Aria: Reloading configs at run time? Nothing wrong with that. But definitely something to be careful with.
[05:39] Crshman: ya I thought of that too
[05:39] Crshman: i'd have the up to date config in memory then just write it out to keep persistence 
[05:40] Crshman: also, why is that advice terrible?
[05:40] _announcer: Twitter: "Very Cool Node.js Graph dB by @SteveDekorte: https://github.com/stevedekorte/vertex.js. Wonder if it can operate as a property graph?" -- Chris@SocialTexture. http://twitter.com/communicating/status/2596507484164096
[05:40] WRA: technically you should write to a different file (like config.new.js) and then on the callback that it completed move the file over to config.js so it overwrites it
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[05:41] WRA: the idea is you don't want to corrupt your config file.
[05:41] WRA: like if your server went poof midst writing to the file.
[05:41] Crshman: ohhh i see
[05:41] Crshman: makes sense
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[05:43] _announcer: Twitter: "Nice introduction to Node.js http://simonwillison.net/2009/Nov/23/node/" -- Arkid Mitra. http://twitter.com/ArchieIndian/status/2597198478974976
[05:43] WRA: also, traditional programmers would yell at you for your program writing code to itself and that the config file should not be in the programming language and should be human readable/etc.
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[05:43] Crshman: JSON is human readable enough =P
[05:43] iszak: We need more blessed modules.
[05:43] WRA:  damn straight it is.
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[05:45] WRA: so using the same logic you can handle persistence for a small set of data
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[05:45] iszak: Will rpm ever be included with node.js?
[05:45] WRA: for example, I have a users object that keeps track of all my users (not the best way of handling things mind you) but I can just stringify that and save it to users.js periodically
[05:45] WRA: next load it'll load that same object 
[05:45] WRA: and on exit I save it as well.
[05:46] Crshman: ya I was thinking of doing something similar
[05:46] WRA: Obvious drawbacks are obvious though
[05:46] Crshman: ya
[05:46] Crshman: but for my intents and purposes it'll work
[05:46] iszak: jesus.
[05:46] iszak: that's terrible way to do things.
[05:46] WRA: see, obvious drawbacks.
[05:47] WRA: You get people yelling at you about how terrible it is.
[05:47] WRA: thats the biggest drawback.
[05:47] Crshman: what do you suggest iszak 
[05:47] Crshman: hahaha
[05:47] iszak: I would rather take a beating to my skull.
[05:47] jamescarr: a user object that tracks all users?
[05:47] jamescarr: sheesh
[05:47] iszak: I wasn't paying attention, what are we talking about?
[05:47] Crshman: saving config settings for persistence
[05:48] iszak: persistence of what?
[05:48] Crshman: i wouldn't be storing users like WRA necessarily
[05:48] iszak: I would prefer a database for persistence..
[05:48] Crshman: settings for the node daemon that are relevant to the server it's running on
[05:48] Crshman: ya that's a lot of work for this small thing i'm doing
[05:48] iszak: what are you working on?
[05:49] Crshman: it's just a daemon that reports server statistics
[05:49] Crshman: uptime, load, bandwidth, etc.
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[05:49] WRA1: bah got disconnected.
[05:49] Crshman: a learning project to get my feet wet with node
[05:49] WRA1: (12:48:44 AM) WRA: jamescarr: what do you think a memory table is?
[05:49] iszak: oh in which case definitely save it to a file, maybe name the files dependant on the date.
[05:50] shaver: spin up redis, you're set
[05:50] WRA1: So let me tell you about databases... I know entirely too much about them -.-
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[05:50] iszak: I would personally like to see a more solid code base for Node.JS, not "blessed" or defacto modules.
[05:51] WRA1: agreed
[05:51] iszak: I like choice, but I like knowing that these components, x,y,z are maintained and in the future will still be there.
[05:51] iszak: s/components/modules
[05:51] WRA1: The more robust the core library is, the better for the rest of us.
[05:51] WRA1: I think Drupal is a good model
[05:51] iszak: I was talking to someone before, something like Zend Framework.
[05:51] WRA1: or Zend 
[05:51] ajsie: iszak: you are talking about the various node libraries?
[05:51] ajsie: that they come and go?
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[05:52] iszak: ajsie, indeed.
[05:52] WRA1: For example, Socket.IO is insanely useful
[05:52] iszak: never heard of it.
[05:52] WRA1: Implements WebSockets/FlashSockets
[05:52] iszak: oh man that's cool.
[05:52] ajsie: iszak: what do you suggest?
[05:52] WRA1: and frames your packets
[05:53] iszak: ajsie, I think there should atleast be a repo and perhaps a package manager much like ruby's.
[05:53] WRA1: I think there is actually
[05:53] iszak: there is a package manager but again not defacto really.
[05:53] ajsie: iszak: npm?
[05:53] iszak: what's stopping anyone from going out there and creating there own.
[05:53] iszak: and fragmenting npm's user base.
[05:54] WRA1: Crshman: btw, what major MMO company doesn't use databases? :D
[05:54] ajsie: iszak: its really is de facto for node.js
[05:54] iszak: ajsie, but it's not really endorsed, if it's de facto it should be in the core..
[05:54] Crshman: WRA1: trick question?
[05:54] Aria: No, that'd make it de jure.
[05:54] WRA1: Nope
[05:54] ajsie: iszak: true .. only Ryan could change that
[05:54] Aria: It not being in core is what makes it de facto.
[05:54] Crshman: minecraft!
[05:54] WRA1: minecraft isn't a MMO
[05:54] iszak: I understand we don't want to bloat node.js's core up.
[05:54] Aria: (well, that and being well-used)
[05:54] Crshman: lol
[05:55] WRA1: but yeah, minecraft does use flatfiles
[05:55] WRA1: as well
[05:55] Crshman: it is...kinda sorta
[05:55] WRA1: minecraft isn't massive
[05:55] ajsie: he is listening from above.. like Superman listening to our appeals
[05:55] Crshman: that's a relative term =P
[05:55] Aria: .oO(Flat files are technically a database)
[05:56] WRA1: ((Yes, they are))
[05:56] Crshman: what's the answer?
[05:56] WRA1: Cryptic
[05:56] Crshman: 
ACTION doesn't know what that is....*googles*

[05:56] ajsie: iszak: i think the open source libraries need some backup
[05:56] WRA1: They made Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and City of Heroes/Villians
[05:56] iszak: ajsie, what exactly do you mean?
[05:56] Crshman: oh, i've never played any of those
[05:56] ajsie: a lot of small contributions that just die out .. some of them are really good
[05:56] Crshman: but i've heard of last one
[05:57] iszak: ajsie, agreed and I think rpm could rectify it but atm there's no web interface to browse? you have to use the CLI?
[05:57] ajsie: some kind of umbrella that incorporates and thus need to maintain them
[05:57] ajsie: the good ones that could be in productions .. in production = in maintainance
[05:58] ajsie: iszak: npm has a web based listing of the npm packages
[05:58] ajsie: but pretty simple
[05:58] Crshman: alright, back to coding...thanks again for the help guys!
[05:59] WRA1: anyhow, they deal with a massive amount of data but just have a server that loads into memory everything from a flat file.
[05:59] iszak: ajpiano, I couldn't find it, where is it?
[05:59] ajsie: http://npm.mape.me/
[05:59] iszak: not ajpiano damn you, get back in jquery, ajsie :P
[05:59] WRA1: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3546675/SQL-Considered-Harmful
[05:59] iszak: why isn't it http://npmjs.org/ ?
[05:59] ajpiano: you will see i am very much there iszak :)
[06:00] ajsie: talk to isaac
[06:00] ajpiano: ;)
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[06:00] ajsie: i think he is hired by the joyent
[06:00] ajsie: read it somewhere .. or maybe it was not him :/
[06:01] ajsie: someone knows?
[06:01] indutny: it was him
[06:01] indutny: :)
[06:01] WRA1: one of these days I should go work for "The Man" instead of entertainment xD
[06:01] WRA1: I hear the pay is better on that side.
[06:01] ajsie: Isaac Schlueter
[06:01] ajsie: yeah its him
[06:02] ajsie: so he is in the node.js team now 
[06:02] ajsie: sounds very practical to make npm to node.js defacto package manager with a decent website
[06:02] iszak: ajsie, http://npm.mape.me/ is outdated.
[06:03] iszak: or broken atleast.
[06:03] WRA1: http://npmjs.org/
[06:03] iszak: no listings.
[06:03] WRA1: yeah, its kinda shitty
[06:03] WRA1: so am I the only one who doesn't like a package manager? 
[06:04] iszak: like the package manager idea or the current one in general?
[06:04] WRA1: the idea, and the fact that people might use it in their installers
[06:04] iszak: what's wrong with using it in their installers?
[06:04] WRA1: lets say you make app1 and I make app2.
[06:05] WRA1: with both require app3
[06:05] WRA1: *we
[06:05] iszak: right.
[06:05] WRA1: however, I need version 2 of app3 and you need version 2.5
[06:05] WRA1: both we both install it.
[06:05] ajsie: walkah: why?
[06:05] WRA1: *but
[06:05] ajsie: WRA1: why?
[06:05] iszak: there is really nothing you can do about that unless you prefix/suffix it?
[06:05] indutny: looks like problem is in app
[06:06] indutny: not in package manager
[06:06] WRA1: app3?
[06:06] iszak: indeed.
[06:06] iszak: no
[06:06] iszak: app 1 or 2.
[06:06] WRA1: app3 might not maintain backwards compatability
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[06:07] WRA1: So lets say I want to install this on a production environment.
[06:07] iszak: then you'd ensure that all components are compatible.
[06:07] WRA1: I install app1 when app3 is v2.0
[06:07] iszak: If not you may even fork the existing code base, update it to use the latest version of app3 and contact the author.
[06:07] WRA1: I then install app2 when app3 is in v2.5
[06:08] WRA1: which then breaks app1
[06:08] ajsie: i should make CSS running on backend
[06:08] WRA1: and I have no idea why app1 is broken
[06:08] ajsie: maybe it will be as big as Node
[06:08] WRA1: ajsie: it'd be a neat way to handle descriptive data
[06:08] iszak: WRA1, the package manager probably can tell if you require x version but you've got y version.
[06:08] ajsie: yeah .. get them some colors
[06:09] WRA1: well you don't have to implement the CSS spec, just the format.
[06:09] ajsie: would be the next big thing..maybe get some fundings too
[06:09] WRA1: so .monster { hp:5;power:10;}
[06:09] WRA1: then every object that inherits monster gets hp:5 and power:10
[06:09] iszak: don't bother.
[06:09] ajsie: yeah
[06:10] iszak: creating the CSS parser will be a PITA.
[06:10] iszak: use something that is native to JS such as node.js
[06:10] iszak: such as JSON
[06:10] ajsie: css should be in json
[06:10] iszak: it could, but why use css when you can just use more json?
[06:10] ajsie: don't know why the bastards insist with its ugly syntax
[06:11] ajsie: can't anyone make it happen
[06:11] ajsie: css -> json
[06:11] ajsie: in the frontend for all browsers
[06:12] ajsie: http://www.skill-guru.com/blog/2010/05/02/working-with-json-css/
[06:13] WRA1: F***, stop giving me bad ideas
[06:14] WRA1: I see that and I immediately want to dynamically generate CSS from my server now for the clients.
[06:14] WRA1: anyhow, night guys... hopefully tomorrow I'll get permission to open source my stuff.
[06:15] ajsie: wiat
[06:15] ajsie: holy cow
[06:15] ajsie: http://www.w3.org/Submission/1996/1/WD-jsss-960822
[06:15] WRA1: and you too can see all the dirty little hacks I put in.
[06:15] ajsie: its in proposal
[06:15] WRA1: from 1996
[06:15] ajsie: yeah 
[06:15] ajsie: i see it now =)
[06:15] ajsie: :(
[06:15] WRA1: besides that  basically is just jquery
[06:15] ajsie: why can't the board get the idea 
[06:15] ajsie: don't they know what is good for the web
[06:15] ajsie: json!
[06:16] ajsie: javascript!
[06:16] ajsie: no html
[06:16] WRA1: yuck
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[06:18] orlandov: quit
[06:18] orlandov: 
[06:19] atmos:  does process.title = 'foo' work on 2.4 ?
[06:20] ryah_: atmos: yes
[06:20] micheil: hmm..
[06:21] micheil: ryah_: was openssl detection in the configure script sligthly broken in 0.2.4?
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[06:21] atmos: doesn't seem to be working on linux or mac for me
[06:21] atmos: strange
[06:21] ryah_: micheil: no, it should be working
[06:21] micheil: ryah_: okay
[06:21] ryah_: atmos: in linux type 'c' in top 
[06:21] micheil: I was getting on an ubuntu ec2: openssl: not found
[06:21] ryah_: atmos: macintosh too, i think
[06:21] micheil: although both the ssl tests that followed were okay
[06:22] micheil: and ssl worked fine (this was with libssl-dev, libssl, openssl packages installed)
[06:22] ryah_: micheil: hm..
[06:22] micheil: it was kinda weird, but as the make test-all passed, I assume it's all fine.
[06:22] ryah_: micheil: which command does it fil on
[06:22] atmos: yeah it really doesn't change it :\
[06:22] atmos: strange
[06:22] micheil: it doesn't actually fail, it's just that it reports openssl as not found
[06:24] micheil: which seems kinda odd
[06:24] atmos: fucking, works in activity monitor but not using ps
[06:24] atmos: err, funky
[06:25] micheil: atmos: process.title is funky
[06:27] ryah_: there are two types of process title
[06:28] ryah_: and they're differnt in the different OSes
[06:28] ryah_: it's totally funky
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[06:30] CIA-93: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07master * rd236430 10/ (3 files): Upgrade http-parser again - http://bit.ly/d765FC
[06:32] CIA-93: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07master * r06267f4 10/ test/simple/test-child-process-double-pipe.js : Remove -e from echo in test. Non-portable - http://bit.ly/d03c77
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[06:40] jotaru: Evening guys. 
[06:41] bruse: hibye
[06:45] _announcer: Twitter: "#yuiconf was awesome, I can not wait until next year, and I'm totally jazzed about YUI3.3.0, YQL, and NodeJS" -- Jeff Craig. http://twitter.com/foxxtrot/status/2612950833565696
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[06:48] _announcer: Twitter: "mod_rewrite on port 80 on how to run http://bit.ly/dpvQNn node.js" [ja] -- Shintaro Torii. http://twitter.com/twodollarz/status/2613677475766272
[06:49] ajsie: anyone that knows what JSGI is compared to node.js?
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[06:53] iszak: why would you even use a web server with node.js? :D
[06:54] _announcer: Twitter: "Need good backtrace and debug tool for nodejs." -- Rex Tsai. http://twitter.com/chihchun/status/2615059717038080
[06:55] iszak: doesn't node.js do backtracing already?
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[07:00] micheil: ajsie: JSGI is really just a way of writing servers
[07:00] micheil: there is a module for node that allows you to use JSGI on top of node
[07:00] ajsie: why would i need that when i could just use node?
[07:00] micheil: I have no idea
[07:00] ajsie: node could do everything jsgi could?
[07:01] micheil: it's like a DSL or something, from what I gather.
[07:01] ajsie: have to look it up
[07:01] ajsie: ok
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[07:12] T-Co: var string; string += "foo" -> "undefinedfoo" is this a feature or a bug?
[07:13] T-Co: Or does this happen in every javascript intrepreter?
[07:13] AAA_awright: v8> var string; string += "foo"; string;
[07:13] v8bot: AAA_awright: "undefinedfoo"
[07:14] pquerna: does someone else want to work on finishing http-streams?
[07:14] AAA_awright: Yeah "string" will default to undefined, and the string representation of undefined is "undefined"
[07:14] T-Co: Yeah
[07:14] _announcer: Twitter: "The first node.js book preview: http://ydn.zenfs.com/blogs/1/up-and-running-with-node-preview.pdf" -- Valery Yushchenko. http://twitter.com/vyushchenko/status/2620147881738240
[07:14] T-Co: This gave me a few "wtfs" just now, until I figured it out.
[07:14] T-Co: I was parsing this XML document and trying to figure out where does this undefined come from.
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[07:19] micheil: because string is undefined
[07:19] micheil: undefined + "" + "foo"
[07:19] micheil: pquerna:  what needs to be done?
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[07:21] pquerna: just sent a mail to the list
[07:24] T-Co: micheil, Yes. I was just confused because this doesn't happen with any progamming language I know. So now when coding a "backend software" I was treating js as one, what it clearly is not :)
[07:24] micheil: pquerna: okay
[07:25] pquerna: micheil: https://github.com/pquerna/node/commit/7381f7078a4205addce79fb666506644e758e6c6 <- should of linked that in the mail;  this was my first approach, by adding an _endflush() method, that told you when you've finished on that end write...
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[07:25] pquerna: but it causes lots of problems; like node closing the tcp connection way too quickly
[07:25] pquerna: i ended up reverting it
[07:25] micheil: hmm..
[07:26] pquerna: should just eb able to run make test, and it should just fail on the test-tls
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[07:31] micheil: okay
[07:32] micheil: can't you do something like message queue length == 0 && socket isn't secure, close
[07:32] micheil: else, message queue length == 0 && secure, trigger closure on secureStream?
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[07:37] pquerna: it shouldn't reach inside to the implemetnation of the stream ideally
[07:37] pquerna: use methods, don't access an internal queue
[07:37] pquerna: reaching in is what caused pain in the last one
[07:37] micheil: okay
[07:40] micheil: pquerna: what about if it just called a prepareClose() function?
[07:40] micheil: and then secureStream and Stream just implemented that?
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[07:42] pquerna: wfm
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[07:49] _announcer: Twitter: "My lil add-only glob pattern matching trie implementation for node.js does 11.3m effective matches in 1.1s :O http://bit.ly/bzxFZL" -- Rick. http://twitter.com/rbranson/status/2628730862174209
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[07:54] ajsie: anyone here has used pintura?
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[08:04] _announcer: Twitter: "Nice design, twereldkaart, speed, progressive enhancement, node.js, HTML5, microformats and micro data http://ndoe.nl/l/8c" [nl] -- Vasilis. http://twitter.com/vasilis/status/2632797713866752
[08:05] _announcer: Twitter: "[uniknotions.com] Learning Javascript with Object Graphs - How To Node - NodeJS: How To NodeThe zen of coding in... http://bit.ly/d2zlQh" -- De Kwarc. http://twitter.com/thisiskwarc/status/2633056313671680
[08:06] _announcer: Twitter: "Learning about node.js. http://debuggable.com/posts/understanding-node-js:4bd98440-45e4-4a9a-8ef7-0f7ecbdd56cb" -- hussein kanji. http://twitter.com/hkanji/status/2633351320051713
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[08:16] _announcer: Twitter: "The http server to make node.js 0.3,,, This, Shinee stable." [ja] -- Yohei Sasaki. http://twitter.com/yssk22/status/2635675518115840
[08:17] iszak: that is pretty damn good.
[08:17] iszak: _announcer, translates the stream :D
[08:17] micheil: yeah
[08:17] iszak: I mean sure it may not sound right, but still that's pretty cool.
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[08:20] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Meso No, server itself Mori Mori, you&#39;re doing it to hang the ab,,, do you want to be spoiled with a little more look, and feel. Node.js even if I do not know yet because of the 0.2 - &gt; 0.3 were broken in it." [ja] -- Yohei Sasaki. http://twitter.com/yssk22/status/2636681744228352
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[08:29] mAritz: yeah, but some of them are just completely unreadably. and there are far too many!
[08:29] tanepiper: gahh...i wish some stuff would stop developing for >= 0.3.x only
[08:29] iszak: just imagine when node.js gains even more ground :D there'll be more tweets than talking in the channel.
[08:30] iszak: tanepiper, why?
[08:30] tanepiper: really wanted to use https://github.com/dannycoates/node-inspector
[08:30] iszak: because it's supposedly "unstable" (very stable for me).
[08:30] tanepiper: iszak: because expressjs doesn't work on 0.3.x yet
[08:30] iszak: fail.
[08:31] tanepiper: well 0.3.x isn't stable yet, it's in flux, especially around HTTP stuff
[08:31] tanepiper: which express relies on
[08:31] iszak: I don't like how it's laid out anyway.
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[08:32] iszak: where is the MVC structure?
[08:33] tanepiper: well i don't need mvc
[08:33] tanepiper: infact mvc would be bad for my app
[08:33] iszak: 0.3.x is more than stable.
[08:33] iszak: I mean sure the API may change, so what? grep, done.
[08:34] iszak: Furthermore say they release 0.3.1, your app not ready for the API change? don't upgrade - simple.
[08:34] bnoordhuis: iszak: 0.3.x is under active development and may change in fundamental ways
[08:34] bnoordhuis: a simple search & replace might not cut it
[08:34] rbranson: V8's regex speed is incredible... 97,200,000 matches across 9,720 REs by 10,000 matches in 54 seconds
[08:34] iszak: <3 regex
[08:35] iszak: bnoordhuis, nonsense, refer to my -not ready for API change comment.
[08:35] iszak: It's better to be prepared for the API change, then not prepared.
[08:35] rbranson: the trie is kickin it's ass though... 1.1 seconds :O
[08:35] iszak: trie?
[08:35] rbranson: https://github.com/rbranson/glob-trie.js
[08:36] bnoordhuis: iszak: it's even better to not waste your time chasing a moving target
[08:36] iszak: who said you're compiling every 2 minutes?
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[08:36] iszak: bnoordhuis, what are you implying? that the dev's are one day like "hmm I want to call it net" then the next "nah lets call it tcp"
[08:37] iszak: and back and forth over the development period?
[08:37] bnoordhuis: iszak: quite possibly yes
[08:37] bnoordhuis: and that's a trivial change
[08:37] iszak: I highly doubt it.
[08:37] iszak: But like I said, you don't compile every day, week maybe even every month if you're using 0.3.0
[08:37] bnoordhuis: well, i do
[08:37] iszak: but when you do, your application would probably be more ready for the changes then going from 0.2.x to 0.3.x
[08:37] bnoordhuis: but i track the master
[08:37] iszak: exactly.
[08:38] bnoordhuis: still, things change in fundamental and non-backwards compatible ways
[08:38] bnoordhuis: buffers, http, etc.
[08:38] iszak: hence is why you should be prepared and be using cutting edge
[08:39] iszak: now it's probably not practical for expressjs, sure.
[08:39] bnoordhuis: if you're an application or middleware programmer it's probably more fruitful to lag behind a few releases
[08:39] iszak: Tell me this, I mean within the last 1 month how many API changes do you think there were?
[08:39] iszak: that broke BC mind you.
[08:39] _announcer: Twitter: "What the f**k is node.js and what’s the fuss all about?: http://wp.me/pVyFz-pd" -- Animesh Kumar. http://twitter.com/anismiles/status/2641567881891840
[08:39] bnoordhuis: BC?
[08:39] iszak: backwards compatibility.
[08:39] bnoordhuis: oh, backwards compatibility
[08:40] bnoordhuis: the buffer api
[08:40] bnoordhuis: that was mostly a c++ api change though
[08:40] tanepiper: iszak: i'm developing a commercial application using nodejs, so i can't afford to track daily changes
[08:40] iszak: who said there was daily changes?
[08:40] tanepiper: because i'd be spending my time on that rather than developing the app
[08:40] iszak: to the api.
[08:40] iszak: there are certain exceptions to the rule, sure.
[08:41] tanepiper: i didn't, but there are changes that break compatibility with other parts i am using, so i need to stay on stable
[08:41] bnoordhuis: rbranson: that's the first implementation of a trie in js i've ever seen
[08:41] bnoordhuis: well done
[08:41] iszak: so then use 0.2.x and backport the 0.3.x scripts and fork them
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[08:47] mAritz: bnoordhuis: i'm using express with 0.3.0
[08:48] iszak: ZING
[08:48] tanepiper: mAritz: and it's not breaking for you?  no ERRCON stuff?
[08:48] mAritz: nope
[08:48] bnoordhuis: mAritz: yes?
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[08:48] mAritz: yes
[08:48] bnoordhuis: well, good for you
[08:49] mAritz: so what is the problem with using 0.3.0?
[08:49] tanepiper: mAritz: 0.3.0 or master?
[08:49] mAritz: 0.3.0
[08:49] bnoordhuis: oh, nothing in itself
[08:49] bnoordhuis: it's just that stuff may break in unexpected and interesting ways
[08:49] iszak: we need monolithic libraries for Node.JS
[08:49] mAritz: just stay on 0.3.0 until you want to migrate to the new versions after that?!
[08:50] iszak: that's exactly what I said!
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[08:54] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Tacksman js Nantetadanosukuriputo. HTML5 Anataha ヲマナビニイッタノデハナイノデスカ (Summary: node.js quickly write code or flaky to learn jQuery)" [ja] -- keisuke Kimura. http://twitter.com/muxukeikei/status/2645201239670784
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[09:00] _announcer: Twitter: "Is it PubSubHubbub, Node.JS &amp; WebSockets applicable to real-time Web? (Ping @ Martin Kallstrom)" [sv] -- Erik Pettersson. http://twitter.com/ptz0n/status/2646728322850816
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[09:02] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Ptz0n Node.js is fast as hell" [sv] -- Jonas Karlsson. http://twitter.com/jskn/status/2647320650842112
[09:04] mAritz: are there any real-world benchmarks i'm missing? because while i love node.js i haven't seen any of those to really judge how fast node.js really is. please enlighten me.
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[09:04] iszak: mAritz, just look at the v8 benchmarks.
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[09:05] iszak: mAritz, http://arewefastyet.com/
[09:05] mAritz: okay, maybe i should've specified real-world webapp benchmarks
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[09:06] iszak: mAritz, look at the link, trust me - interesting.
[09:06] mAritz: i know that page, but thanks anyways
[09:07] saschagehlich has joined the channel
[09:08] _announcer: Twitter: "AdobeCS me for me for some people node.js Javascript utility modules that can be rewritten for too much fun doing the work of Vows node.js the testing is too much fun to" [ja] -- nbqx. http://twitter.com/nbqx/status/2648887311474688
[09:08] AAA_awright: http://arewefastyet.com/ hahahahaha
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[09:15] ajsie: anyone heard of object capability security?
[09:18] AAA_awright: No, looks interesting
[09:18] stagas: they're fast alright
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[09:19] _announcer: Twitter: "What is Sequoia Capital doing with node.js? &lt; weirdest question i have seen on http://quora.com." -- Teng Siong, Ong. http://twitter.com/siong1987/status/2651578720845825
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[09:19] ajsie: anyone uses Pintura framework?
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[09:21] sriley: tanepiper: were you asking about the express and wheres its mvc? if so there is an example in their examples on how to set up an mvc using express
[09:21] sriley: oops iszak  even
[09:22] iszak: sriley, it should force upon the user MVC.
[09:22] iszak: As we all know MVC is by far one of the best arch patterns.
[09:22] sriley: what about small apps that dont need that?
[09:22] sriley: eg 1 page
[09:22] iszak: then they can use express.
[09:22] iszak: I just want a monolithic library in Node.JS.
[09:22] ajsie: iszak: not for the server side
[09:23] iszak: It's perfect for the server side.
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[09:23] ajsie: its not the 90s =)
[09:23] sriley: which lib are we talking about?
[09:23] iszak: None in particular.
[09:23] ajsie: iszak: you've heard about Sproutcore?
[09:23] iszak: I'm just saying, I want a monolithic library.
[09:23] iszak: ajsie, yes.
[09:23] jetienne: ajsie: their code is good but their doc is real bad tho
[09:24] ajsie: jetienne: agreed .. they are working on it
[09:24] iszak: what about it though?
[09:24] ajsie: iszak: views and all presentation layer should be on the clients
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[09:24] ajsie: json between servers and clients
[09:24] ajsie: that is the new pattern we are seeing 
[09:25] iszak: what are you on about?
[09:25] iszak: you still need the views server side.
[09:25] ajsie: no?
[09:25] iszak: yes, because you serve it to the client.
[09:25] ajsie: servers should only fire out json
[09:25] mape: iszak: Think some people want to assume everyone has js enabled :) And therefor only send json
[09:25] sriley: if you just have it on the client then goodbye search results
[09:26] stagas: rbranson: nice job on glob-trie
[09:26] iszak: how will the user get the design of the site then? through JSON?
[09:26] ajsie: javascript
[09:26] iszak: but you need to STORE the design somewhere.
[09:26] iszak: it doesn't just come out of vapor.
[09:26] sriley: you need it on the server, and if you want optimise the client to fetch parts of the site via json using the same code
[09:26] ajsie: i thought you knew what sproutcore was =)
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[09:27] iszak: ajsie, we're in node.js, you didn't indicate we were talking about sproutcore.
[09:27] ajsie: iszak: read about Sproutcore
[09:27] ajsie: i said json on client side .. and mentioned Sproutcore =)
[09:27] ajsie: views on client side i mean
[09:27] iszak: yes, mentioned.
[09:28] _announcer: Twitter: "much progress in understanding the EventEmitter node.js is called. Emitter seems to mean everything from an Event or emitted by a feeling like the boss." [ja] -- hiroshi oyamada. http://twitter.com/h5y1m141/status/2653780067753984
[09:28] ajsie: what im trying to say...MVC isn't the answer for the backend
[09:28] iszak: Course it is.
[09:28] iszak: MVC is always the answer.
[09:28] iszak: unless it's a small project.
[09:29] ajsie: presentation on client .. you know animations?
[09:29] ajsie: its 2010 .. you want to serve web pages you do that with MVC on server
[09:29] iszak: but the css/etc is stored on the server.
[09:30] ajsie: you want to build applications you better make the views living on the clients
[09:30] iszak: but they need to get the initial views.
[09:30] iszak: that's where MVC comes in.
[09:30] ajsie: yeah but the views are on the client
[09:31] iszak: MVC is still very much relevant, views are on the server.
[09:31] iszak: they're just rendered on the client.
[09:31] sriley: you really do need it on the server, not everyone has js enable, especially non visual user agents eg serach engine spiders
[09:31] ajsie: iszak: i dont think you get me .. whatever 
[09:31] iszak: Agreed.
[09:31] ajsie: sriley: agreed for web pages
[09:32] sriley: no reason not to do it for apps too
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[09:32] ajsie: sriley: its gonna be another kind of user experience
[09:32] sriley: the basic functionality should work server side and then optimise it
[09:33] ajsie: sriley: i just dont want to think about how we did it yesterday .. clicking something and having to wait
[09:33] ajsie: for a full rendering HTML page
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[09:33] sriley: the data still has to be retrieved...
[09:33] ajsie: i do it the 2020 way right now =)
[09:33] ajsie: yeah but only json
[09:33] ajsie: very light
[09:33] ajsie: and in small chunks
[09:33] ajsie: fetch 10 objects first
[09:34] sriley: you do know it takes like 0.1s to do a full render when 99% of the page is cached?
[09:34] ajsie: sriley: why would i render a whole new page for some data
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[09:35] ajsie: now i click on a new page on a website and i see it loading
[09:35] sriley: for users that dont have js enabled, then you optimise it via js to just load part of it
[09:35] ajsie: sriley: agreed 
[09:35] sriley: the actual speed difference between those 2 version wont actually be that much though
[09:35] ajsie: 99% will use non-js too
[09:36] ajsie: but if my users dont use js .. they wont find my app interesting =)
[09:36] ajsie: cause it wont work
[09:36] sriley: but thats not something new, sites have beein using js to optimise the frontend for years
[09:36] ajsie: "i disabled js"
[09:36] ajsie: "well...come back when you click enable"
[09:36] jankoprowski has joined the channel
[09:36] jankoprowski: Hi
[09:37] ajsie: "i disabled css"
[09:37] jankoprowski: Is there some way to extend Node.JS JavaScript by subset of methods known from e.g. ExtJS?
[09:37] jankoprowski: Just to make JavaScript object more robust.
[09:37] sriley: dunno about extjs but you can run yui on nodejs see a vid by dav glass
[09:37] ajsie: or i disabled this and that .. javascript is here to stay god damn it .. why does people disable it .. and dont come with "security problems"
[09:38] ajsie: jankoprowski: use underscore
[09:38] ajsie: very nice framework
[09:38] ajsie: for node and browser
[09:38] mikedeboer: rbranson: you might be interested in my implementation of a trie: https://github.com/mikedeboer/trie
[09:38] jankoprowski: ajsie: underscore is jQuery origin framework?
[09:39] ajsie: jankoprowski: https://github.com/documentcloud/underscore
[09:39] jankoprowski: ajsie: I just don't know how make this without <script src=""> 
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[09:39] ajsie: its for extending javascript in an unobtrusive way
[09:39] jankoprowski: ajsie: I'm strictli client-side developer
[09:39] ajsie: jankoprowski: npm install underscore
[09:40] jankoprowski: ajsie: right!
[09:40] ajsie: but i thought you were going to use node
[09:40] jankoprowski: ajsie: only one "Hello World"
[09:40] ajsie: dont use the node shell for it though
[09:40] jankoprowski: ajsie: I'm Python developer
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[09:40] jankoprowski: ajsie: Now I'm reading http://eloquentjavascript.net
[09:40] ajsie: cause it has problem with the node shell .. use it in a js file and run it with "node file.js"
[09:40] jankoprowski: ajsie: to learn Java Script language
[09:40] ajsie: jankoprowski: i c =)
[09:40] ajsie: okay
[09:41] iszak: python and javascript are like cuzz
[09:41] jankoprowski: ajsie: I prefere shee bang #!/usr/bin/node :)
[09:41] ajsie: yeah =)
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[09:41] stride: iszak: cuzz?
[09:41] iszak: cousins
[09:42] ajsie: but then you have to run "chmod a+x" too
[09:42] ajsie: =)
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[09:42] jankoprowski: ajsie: There is so much to learn: Scala, PostgreSQL, JavaScript, Haskell, Erlang - our day should have more then 24 hours
[09:42] iszak: jankoprowski, you mean we should just sleep less?
[09:42] ajsie: jankoprowski: thats why i chose javascript =)
[09:42] jankoprowski: iszak: I need almost 10-12 hours of sleep
[09:42] iszak: I mean in theory if our days were longer our bodies would probably adapt to still sleeping 1/3 of it.
[09:42] ajsie: php -> ruby -> javascript 
[09:43] caolanm: anyone know how to check that all data has been flushed to stdout before exiting?
[09:43] ajsie: no more other languages to learn .. 100% javascript
[09:43] jankoprowski: ajsie: Pascal -> PHP -> Python -> .... we wil see
[09:43] ajsie: jankoprowski: just remember , chrome os is here to stay too (i guess)
[09:44] ajsie: and node.js
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[09:44] robinduckett: Morning
[09:44] jankoprowski: ajsie: yeap ... I remember. I'm still telling my friends
[09:44] ajsie: look what is the future before investing time to learn something .. it takes a lot of time and energy
[09:44] robinduckett: Anyone know how I can forcibly disconnect a client with socket.io?
[09:44] robinduckett: from the server, not the client
[09:45] robinduckett: and sending a message to the client to trigger a disconnect on it's side won't do
[09:45] iszak: jankoprowski, ouch.
[09:45] jankoprowski: ajsie: If You want write something today what will can be running on Your child's duck bath for 20 years - use JavaScript
[09:46] sixtus42 has joined the channel
[09:46] ajsie: =)
[09:46] stride: jankoprowski: what makes you think that?
[09:46] ajsie: yeah im focusing only on js
[09:46] ajsie: so exciting 
[09:46] jankoprowski: stride: Java Script is and will be everywhere where Internet is present.
[09:46] stagas: robinduckett: inspect the client object
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[09:46] ajsie: everyone thought and still thinks it was/is a baby language
[09:46] stride: javascript is a language that changes over time as well, even with our loved browser vendors slowly rolling stuff out
[09:46] ajsie: never saw it was coming
[09:46] ajsie: for them all!
[09:47] robinduckett: stagas: I have, there's no disconnect method as far as I can see
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[09:47] jankoprowski: stride: Why my child's duck bath doesn't have internet?
[09:47] mbrochh: anybody knows something about komodo? how can I create a post-safe-hook and let JSLint run?
[09:47] jankoprowski: jankoprowski: Today even toster have internet access
[09:47] ajsie: javascript: "ruuuubyyyy,,, yoooooou aaaaaaaare mööööööööiiiking möööööööi....annnnngrööööööi!!!"
[09:47] jankoprowski: jankoprowski: So even my toster have JavaScript
[09:47] stride: jankoprowski: all I'm saying is that 20 years is a pretty weird measure of a time frame in our industry imho
[09:47] _announcer: Twitter: "Install Node.js and make your first Hello World server http://goo.gl/fb/gNdnJ @ontwiik #javascript #nodejs" -- ontwik. http://twitter.com/ontwiik/status/2658768433184768
[09:48] jankoprowski: stride: I live in poland. Here ... hmm ... maybe this is a difference
[09:48] ajsie: wonder if javascript will be gone one day
[09:48] stagas: robinduckett: call ._onClose()
[09:48] jankoprowski: btw. I don't like "Hello World". "Hello Kitty" is less obvious
[09:48] robinduckett: stagas: is that not a event?
[09:48] robinduckett: *an event
[09:48] ajsie: maybe they succeed to make ruby/python/java on browsers
[09:49] _announcer: Twitter: "Multipart Upload in Amazon S3. Upload objects as you create them, gzip objects on the fly! http://j.mp/cvEvDh Soon or later in node.s3.js" -- Louis-Rémi Babé. http://twitter.com/Louis_Remi/status/2659069030567936
[09:49] ajsie: then javascript won't be on a golden seat anylonger
[09:49] jankoprowski: Sometimes I belive that PyV8 an RubyV8 allow to use <script type="ruby/text"> and <script type="python/text"> 
[09:49] jankoprowski: in browsers
[09:49] ntelford has joined the channel
[09:49] jankoprowski: But we will see
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[09:50] ajsie: i think thats javascript largest benefit .. that it runs on browsers..without that it would be long gone
[09:50] jankoprowski: I'm backing to read my JS book
[09:50] stagas: robinduckett: no it's a method https://github.com/LearnBoost/Socket.IO-node/blob/master/lib/socket.io/client.js#L122-142
[09:50] stagas: robinduckett: private one but still it might work ?
[09:50] robinduckett: I'll try
[09:50] ajsie: jankoprowski: but then all vendors have to allow that .. not in 10 years =)
[09:50] jankoprowski: ajsie: we will see :]
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[09:51] ajsie: i hope they wont!
[09:51] ajsie: i dont want to jump to another lang again
[09:51] stagas: robinduckett: there is also a connection instance in the client object client.connection so you can do .end and .destroy but that won't remove it from the internal queue I think
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[09:57] mbrochh: does anybody here use JSLint? For me it always puts out warnings like 'require' is not defined... how can I handle this issue?
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[09:57] iszak: adding it as a global
[09:57] iszak: but in all honestly you shouldn't have to obey JSLint
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[09:58] iszak: as you're not really running it cross browser, so long as it runs in V8 it's allll good
[09:58] mbrochh: yea but i'd like to use it because it enforces nice coding conventions
[09:58] mbrochh: but using it doesn't make any sense when it is polluted with false positives all the time
[09:58] iszak: well add in the predefined "require,console"
[09:58] iszak: etc.
[09:59] mbrochh: yup, figured that out already... i think the kJSLint Plugin doesn't save this setting, right?
[09:59] saschagehlich has joined the channel
[09:59] iszak: no idea.
[10:00] iszak: seriously.. though that's just for cross browser JS.
[10:00] iszak: I would just disregard it.
[10:00] mbrochh: i think differently. its vital for working in team environments
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[10:01] iszak: mbrochh, so set up coding standards.
[10:01] mbrochh: done: use JSLint :)
[10:01] iszak: done: not my problem.
[10:02] mbrochh: sure. nothing asked in here is your problem really :)
[10:02] iszak: beer o'clock anyway.
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[10:03] mbrochh: beer o' clock? is that 4pm?
[10:03] iszak: end of work basically
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[10:05] mbrochh: hehehe
[10:05] iszak: for me it's 6pm
[10:05] mbrochh: what part of the world would that be? asia?
[10:05] mbrochh: yea same here :)
[10:05] mbrochh: Singapore
[10:06] iszak: UTC + 8, WA, Australia
[10:07] mbrochh: Crazy... how can Australia be in the same timezone as SG
[10:07] iszak: Just can
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[10:26] tempas: which one is the most popular web framework for node.js?
[10:27] tempas: and widely used
[10:27] robinduckett: express?
[10:27] robinduckett: connect?
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[10:27] christophsturm: fab
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[10:28] sixtus42: when it comes to node, the race for frameworks is still out
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[10:28] sixtus42: the first wave is copying approaches from other languages
[10:29] sixtus42: fab is the first of the 2nd wave, i.e. trying to build something new based on the actual language (rather than copying)
[10:29] tempas: sixtus42: it looks complicated
[10:30] tempas: looks very unmaintainable .. can't see what is doing what
[10:30] sixtus42: tempas: not complicated, just not what your mind is setup to parse without an introduction
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[10:30] tempas: i guess its something new .. but new != best approach
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[10:31] sixtus42: I did NOT say best
[10:31] tempas: omitting objects totally for functions .. it would be good for math but i doubt for big enterprise web apps
[10:31] sixtus42: fab is an early bird of something to come
[10:31] sixtus42: As I said, the race is still out
[10:31] tempas: sixtus42: lets see what it will become
[10:31] tempas: yeah .. express looks good
[10:31] tempas: any thoughts?
[10:32] tempas: do you think there will be a de-facto like rails for ruby?
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[10:32] tanepiper: sriley: not me, i', not using mvc
[10:33] sixtus42: actually, no I don't think there will be a single one to rule them all
[10:33] _announcer: Twitter: "IMHO there are 2 kinds of simplicity: that comes from (A) simple minds (bad code, fundamentalism) and (B) complex minds (#iphone, #nodejs)" -- Kristof Kovacs. http://twitter.com/kkovacs/status/2670162645884928
[10:33] _announcer: Twitter: "Going to have another play with node.js tonight." -- Colin Lyons. http://twitter.com/lyonscf/status/2670177686654977
[10:33] sixtus42: and I'd be sad, if node just gets a rails clone
[10:34] sixtus42: but *if* you need something like rails right now, express is probably a safe route
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[10:34] robinduckett: express isn't like rails though
[10:34] robinduckett: no mvc
[10:34] tempas: sixtus42: but maybe not rails clone .. maybe something even better
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[10:35] tempas: could one use Express to build another web framework on?
[10:35] sixtus42: all languages are turing complete
[10:35] tempas: since it's very tiny and have no strict rules
[10:35] stride: tempas: sure. although that would be a framework on a framework on a framework :)
[10:35] sixtus42: the questions is whether that is a good idea
[10:35] sid: hey is any one of the Joyent guys here?
[10:35] robinduckett: sixtus42
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[10:35] robinduckett: that's not true :D
[10:35] stride: which would be pretty java. :)
[10:36] sid: I want to know if we can tie up 2 or more joyent servers to make a cluster ?
[10:36] sixtus42: ok, sql is not turing complete
[10:36] tempas: sixtus42: but javascript is just language on language on language
[10:36] robinduckett: actually i think SQL is
[10:36] tempas: why reinvent the wheel
[10:36] tempas: even if i made my own framework from scratch it would have same functionalities like express 
[10:36] echosystm has joined the channel
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[10:36] tempas: better to be built in top of a giant .. and express seems to allow that with no rules forced upon you
[10:37] sixtus42: tempas: not necessarily ;-)
[10:37] saschagehlich: v8> new Date("Wed Feb 11 08:21:48 +0000 2009");
[10:37] v8bot: saschagehlich: "Wed Feb 11 2009 03:21:48 GMT-0500 (EST)"
[10:37] tempas: sixtus42: i thought i could use connect .. but then i need a view layer .. so that would be the one express uses
[10:37] saschagehlich: hmmm does not work in IE :(
[10:38] tempas: and also its well maintained
[10:38] tempas: sixtus42: it wouldn't be like framework on framework .. its just like im building something to build something
[10:38] tempas: and i use express so i dont have to start from scratch
[10:38] tempas: like Ubuntu on Debian
[10:39] sixtus42: tempas: well more power to you then, if express makes you more productive
[10:39] tempas: I just add functionalities on top of express 
[10:39] tempas: like Ubuntu did with Debian
[10:39] tempas: it would be stupid for Ubuntu to start from scratch 
[10:39] sixtus42: I'm just saying, expect node to be the breeding ground for the next gen, and express is more a good implementation of the last gen
[10:40] tempas: sixtus42: but express doesn't force anything
[10:40] sixtus42: every tool has a mindset
[10:41] tempas: either way i have to have a request handler that directs the requests to a handler
[10:41] tempas: express/connect does that .. either way i have to render something .. express does't that
[10:42] sixtus42: tempas: like I said, express is not bad. it's just not what I expect the node world to be raving about in 5 years
[10:42] echosystm: express was not really made for the kinds of things i imagine most of us are wanting to use node for
[10:42] stride: tempas: doesn't express come with something that renders views?
[10:42] indutny: what is v8 using for attribute search
[10:42] indutny: ?
[10:42] indutny: i mean
[10:43] indutny: if i have object with thound attributes
[10:43] tempas: sixtus42: but that is why im building a new framework 
[10:43] echosystm: i think geddy is much closer to what many of us want
[10:43] indutny: and do: obj['attribute-name']
[10:43] echosystm: but still, its not amazing
[10:43] indutny: will it costs o(n)
[10:43] indutny: or o(log n)
[10:43] stride: echosystm: like acting as a remote logger for syslogd? nah, express sucked with that :>
[10:43] tempas: but why start from scratch when express has the core parts of what i was going to do .. it's just adding some features for a web server
[10:43] tempas: like connecting connect parts =)
[10:43] tempas: its not that im going to build an express with express
[10:43] echosystm: Connect isn't that great either
[10:44] sixtus42: tempas: I judge frameworks by the concept, not the implementation. express is on old concepts
[10:44] tempas: why is htat?
[10:44] echosystm: dont get me wrong, its good if you want an MVCish type application
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[10:44] echosystm: but i doubt most people here are interested in that
[10:44] echosystm: the routing mechanism is primitive
[10:44] tempas: echosystm: it doesnt force mvc on you
[10:44] tempas: could you elaborate
[10:44] echosystm: content negotiation should really be built into the routing
[10:44] echosystm: i just expect that of a good web framework now
[10:46] tempas: i could do that on top of express
[10:46] echosystm: but would you want to?
[10:46] tempas: why wouldnt i want to?
[10:46] tempas: i mean my framework that im going to build
[10:46] echosystm: you might as well just do it all over again
[10:46] sriley: what one man considers q required feature is another mans bloat
[10:46] echosystm: collection/resource controllers with content negotiation and full HTTP verbiage is where its at
[10:47] echosystm: brb
[10:47] tempas: echosystm: you mean like pintura?
[10:48] sixtus42: tempas: my prototype framework (for a thesis) doesn't even have routes the way you think about them
[10:48] tempas: sixtus42: are you implementing one or is it just in theory?
[10:48] sixtus42: tempas: implementing, but currently neither shipping nor showing
[10:49] tempas: okay
[10:50] echosystm: back
[10:50] echosystm: yeah somewhat like pintura tempas 
[10:51] echosystm: but there is a lot of problems with that too
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[10:51] echosystm: eg. they use the range header for pagination, which is not really what its meant for
[10:51] sixtus42: echosystm: wtf? range for pagination?
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[10:51] echosystm: yep
[10:51] echosystm: like this
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[10:52] echosystm: Range: pages 1,50
[10:52] echosystm: or something like that, i forget exactly
[10:52] tempas: you dont like pintura?
[10:52] echosystm: its a step in the right direction
[10:52] echosystm: a pretty good one at that
[10:52] tempas: it seems to be a whole new concept
[10:52] stride: echosystm: that's totally weird
[10:53] echosystm: but, it just has a few weird things like that that i dont like
[10:53] tempas: echosystm: like?
[10:53] echosystm: the range header thing
[10:53] tempas: what do you think about the facets?
[10:53] echosystm: theres a few others, i just cant remember them
[10:53] echosystm: i didnt really look into it much - the range header thing turned me off immediately
[10:53] tempas: are there good tutorials .. the docs i've read are very outdated
[10:54] tempas: doesnt looks popular for some reasons
[10:54] tempas: bad docs?
[10:54] echosystm: i think its been abandoned
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[10:54] echosystm: from the docs...
[10:54] echosystm: Range: items=10-19
[10:54] echosystm: thats how they do range queries
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[10:55] echosystm: pretty bizzare
[10:55] echosystm: that header is meant to be only for bytes
[10:56] echosystm: the best web "framework" i've found is the jax-rs standards in java
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[10:56] echosystm: it'll only be a matter of time until someone does something similar in nodejs
[10:58] _announcer: Twitter: "hope i'll get the chance to develop solutions using node.js and mongodb. i could retire from java then..." -- ely celino. http://twitter.com/elycelino/status/2676426423672833
[10:58] echosystm: i've been wanting to do it myself, but its difficult to find the time
[10:58] sixtus42: I student of mine was in the jcp for jax-rs. Good direction, but still not *wow*
[10:58] echosystm: its nothing amazing sixtus42 
[10:58] tempas: echosystm: its not abandoned
[10:58] echosystm: it just doesnt do anything silly
[10:59] tempas: still very recent activity on github repo 
[10:59] sixtus42: echosystm: true. not violating the http spec already eliminates a good bunch :-/
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[10:59] echosystm: yes haha
[11:00] sixtus42: echosystm: yet to meet a framework claiming to be "restful" not violating REST in some way
[11:00] echosystm: most frameworks are aimed at MVC apps that use nothing but HTML responses and GET/POST
[11:01] echosystm: personally i cant fathom doing anything like that anymore, it just seems so antiquated
[11:01] tempas: echosystm: what exactly do you want
[11:01] sixtus42: mvc doesn't go well with REST, very true
[11:01] echosystm: ok, in a nut shell
[11:01] tempas: could you list all features so i could see if i could implement those on my new one
[11:02] tempas: all the WOW features
[11:02] tempas: not minor ones .. the ones that gonna do the difference and that would be the way we do node =)
[11:02] echosystm: a controller should handle the behaviour of a /collection/resource or /resource uri
[11:02] echosystm: not arbitrary URIs
[11:02] echosystm: that is already a big thing - almost no frameworks do that
[11:03] tempas: could you be more specific?
[11:03] sixtus42: echosystm: can you say that more precisely
[11:03] echosystm: ok
[11:03] sixtus42: giving me room for interpretation
[11:03] tempas: something like Rails?
[11:03] echosystm: in the type of apps i write, i'll never model things in arbitrary ways like this...
[11:03] echosystm: .com/accounts/<id>/sort/ascending/whatever
[11:03] echosystm: thats just retarded
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[11:03] tempas: if you have time, do use pastie for some imaginary code how it would look like
[11:04] caolanm: echosystm: but why restrict it? ...saves you writing out a pattern I guess, but thats about it
[11:04] echosystm: no
[11:04] caolanm: that's the way that object publishing went
[11:04] echosystm: uris like that are terrible
[11:04] caolanm: and it sucked
[11:04] echosystm: they should be properly formatted URIs
[11:04] echosystm: with queries and whatever # is called
[11:04] tempas: so after ? and #
[11:05] echosystm: # = fragment (had a mind blank there lol)
[11:05] tempas: i guess Rails is doing that already .. havent seen .com/accounts/<id>/sort/ascending/whatever in Rails
[11:05] echosystm: ok back to my rant
[11:05] echosystm: all uris should be in the form /collection/resource
[11:05] davidc_: echosystm, what I do in frapi to ensure the relationship is usually create two URIs. One is the collection (/collection) and the second one is the one that the collection knows about which is the resource /collection/:resource-id
[11:05] echosystm: eg. /accounts/<accountId>
[11:05] davidc_: I really hate to see /sort/asc/x in URIs
[11:06] davidc_: they don't belong there as I like to keep my resource uris representative of what they are. 
[11:06] echosystm: anything you need to do on that uri should be in the query or fragment
[11:06] davidc_: Agreed.
[11:06] caolanm: echosystm: I'm agreeing with you, just asking why you need the framework to restrict this
[11:06] tempas: echosystm: not /users/user/1 ?
[11:06] caolanm: I suppose it ensures consistency
[11:06] davidc_: tempas, users is already a collection of users
[11:06] echosystm: eg. /accounts/ might return a list of things like {id: 1, name: 'bob'}
[11:06] davidc_: so juse have /users/1
[11:06] davidc_: for the resource user 1
[11:06] echosystm: ./acounts/1 would just return the one
[11:07] echosystm: queries should only be possible on the collection.. NEVER the resource
[11:07] tempas:    /accounts would return everyone?
[11:07] echosystm: eg. /acounts?name=bob/
[11:07] _announcer: Twitter: "more work done on generic-crud for #nodejs #expressjs and #mongoose ... check it out ! http://goo.gl/cTCyT" -- Brice Carpentier. http://twitter.com/bricecarpentier/status/2678793831452672
[11:07] echosystm: yes tempas
[11:07] davidc_: tempas think of it this way: /accounts is a collection of all accounts.
[11:07] davidc_: and /accounts/{id} is a resource member of that collection.
[11:08] davidc_: From the first endpoint (/accounts) you should be able to discover the rest of the resources associated to it.
[11:08] echosystm: caolanm: the reason it should be restricted is so that your controllers are simplified into either collection controllers or resource controllers
[11:08] sth: Hai davidc_ 
[11:08] davidc_: Hey sth :)
[11:08] echosystm: theres no arbitrary routing and controllers
[11:08] echosystm: this makes it possible to speed up dispatch
[11:08] tempas: davidc_: okay .. but if it contains 1 000 000 users
[11:08] tempas: it only returns the first 10?
[11:09] echosystm: you effectively create a chain of possible uri segments... rather than 50 regexs that need to be evaluated
[11:09] davidc_: tempas, then use page and limit.
[11:09] tempas: then i do : /accounts?page=2
[11:09] tempas: then i do : /accounts?page=3
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[11:09] davidc_: /accounts?page=3&limit=100
[11:09] echosystm: ok now first thing...
[11:09] echosystm: this is REST
[11:09] echosystm: theres no such thing as pages
[11:09] tempas: maybe offset?
[11:09] sixtus42: 
ACTION is getting popcorn

[11:09] echosystm: which brings me to my next point
[11:09] tempas: then i do : /accounts?offset=100&limit100
[11:09] echosystm: maps and reduces in queries
[11:10] caolanm: 
ACTION looks for popcorn too

[11:10] echosystm: theres nothing in the http spec that says you cant do ?range(1,50)
[11:10] echosystm: and that is a much neater way than misusing headers
[11:10] davidc_: Semantics.
[11:10] echosystm: and it allows you to use generic functions in queries
[11:10] tempas: echosystm: but you have to have a request handler that is redirecting the /accounts to the right controller right?
[11:11] echosystm: eg. /accounts?total(balance)
[11:11] tempas: or where will it jump to?
[11:11] echosystm: this map/reduce stuff in queries is somthing ive been using at work
[11:11] davidc_: And it doesn't mean it's the right way to do things.
[11:11] echosystm: i just load some generic functions into my router and it transparently handles the querying
[11:12] echosystm: of course not davidc_ 
[11:12] echosystm: i imagine many people would think this is an ugly solution
[11:12] echosystm: but, afaik, theres no standard for what the query is to contain
[11:12] echosystm: its totally arbitrary
[11:12] sixtus42: that's the beauty of http, it allows for different approaches :-)
[11:12] tempas: echosystm: isn't couchdb doing map-reduce
[11:12] caolanm:  /accounts?child_process.spawn('rm', ['-rf','/'])
[11:12] davidc_: sixtus42, that's also what can make it so ugly at at times :)
[11:13] caolanm: echosystm: it sounds like you basically want couchdb
[11:13] caolanm: and couchapps
[11:13] tempas: with views
[11:13] davidc_: caolanm, even couchdb doesn't do map-reduce "in" the urls.
[11:13] echosystm: except that my resources arent necessarily data from a database
[11:13] echosystm: :P
[11:13] davidc_: You pass the keys you want and then the actual m/r functions handle it.
[11:13] tempas: caolanm: =)
[11:13] davidc_: echosystm, don't think of a database as the traditional way.
[11:13] davidc_: Your data comes from somewhere where it's "stored" so it is from some sort of "data-base"
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[11:14] echosystm: i guess so
[11:14] davidc_: That's what's pretty cool with couchdb+couchapps
[11:14] echosystm: im not familiar with couchdb
[11:14] _announcer: Twitter: "@mahemoff BTW: Whats your personal opinion about how Palm handles the Web vs Native thing with webOS (e.g. nodeJS)?" -- Basti. http://twitter.com/biggerCC/status/2680602763460609
[11:14] sixtus42: ok, let's throw some more stuff in: structuring the request pipeline. I think http://bitbucket.org/justin/webmachine/wiki/WebmachineMechanics is not getting enough attention, how this can be done
[11:15] zorzar_ has joined the channel
[11:15] davidc_: sixtus42, I'd say webmachine in general isn't getting enough attention :)
[11:15] tempas: wait a sec .. what on the server side handles /acounts?name=bob/ .. 1. the routing that sends it to a controller method 2. it goes to a controller method directly 3. to a model ?
[11:15] echosystm: yes tempas
[11:15] tempas: yes to what
[11:15] echosystm: it goes directly to a model
[11:16] tempas: ok
[11:16] tempas: to accounts model?
[11:16] echosystm: in REST, everything is kind of a model
[11:16] echosystm: you write your program as a collection of resources
[11:16] sixtus42: and going back to my world: I start with replicated data and go from there. I.e. instead of server->controller->model, I go proxy->model->controller
[11:16] tempas: so you have Accounts model or Account model?
[11:16] echosystm: you have an Account model (class)
[11:16] echosystm: ./accounts/ is talking about all accounts int he system
[11:16] tempas: yeah 
[11:17] echosystm: ./accounts/id is talking about one specific account
[11:17] tempas: reading about Restful webservices at the moment 
[11:17] tempas: but ahve just read half the book =)
[11:17] sixtus42: tempas: start with http://www.infoq.com/articles/webber-rest-workflow
[11:17] echosystm: which book?
[11:18] davidc_: Make sure you listen to more than one person :) REST is so vague these days that it's often misused or misinterpreted. And make sure to read up on Hypermedia
[11:18] echosystm: is it the oreilly one tempas ?
[11:18] tempas: so I guess that there is a method called Get in the Account model .. and it is passed bob as the name argument right?
[11:18] tempas: yes
[11:18] echosystm: ok, ive read that book
[11:18] echosystm: its not bad, but its not great
[11:18] sixtus42: tempas: and don't forget, you are not doing REST until you understand HATEOAS
[11:18] echosystm: thers a lot of guff in there about s3 and so on that you can skip completely
[11:18] tempas: it explains a lot i didnt think of
[11:19] tempas: HATEAOS?
[11:19] echosystm: the most important thing is to familiarise yourself with HTTP headers and so on
[11:19] sixtus42: hypermedia as the engine of application state
[11:19] tempas: and where to put the methods
[11:19] davidc_: HATEAOS is pretty much "all" you need to know now basically in order to be "restful"
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[11:19] echosystm: which is towards the back
[11:19] echosystm: anyway, back to your question
[11:19] echosystm: you still have controllers and models
[11:19] sixtus42: tempas: also check out http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html
[11:19] tempas: controllers for what?
[11:19] echosystm: a model is just an instance of whatever object youre dealing with right
[11:20] echosystm: the controllers handle what you want to do to them, including authentication and so on
[11:20] echosystm: so your controller might have functions like getTextHtml
[11:20] tempas: thx for the links .. seems like good articles i read them later
[11:20] echosystm: or getTextXml
[11:20] sixtus42: tempas: as davidc_ was saying, 90% of what people think about REST, is not
[11:20] davidc_: I still believe in controllers before the model because in reality you may  need to do some sanitizing on what's coming in (As most real-life implementations are not theoritical and people are evil)
[11:21] echosystm: in a simple example, those functions might just authenticate the client, pull a model from the db and return it for automagic deserialisation based on the content type requested
[11:22] echosystm: i agree with davidc_ 
[11:22] echosystm: sometimes you dont even have models
[11:22] tempas: echosystm: it seems that they are having the same responsibility like today's MVC controllers
[11:22] echosystm: theyre similar ideas
[11:22] tempas: thinking of Rails .. doing stuff before
[11:23] sixtus42: I think you need to define the terms before you rearrange them ;-)
[11:23] tempas: but then your idea kinda breaks
[11:23] echosystm: a lot of MVC frameworks almost get it right
[11:23] sixtus42: a model is not a model is not a model :-)
[11:23] tempas: the URI -> model directly approach
[11:23] echosystm: uri -> controller -> model
[11:23] davidc_: echosystm, check out getfrapi.com <-- seems to address a few of your issues (even though there's some education to be done to new users with regards to collections vs resources (And dont' get freightened by the word "action" -- it's not XML-RPC) :)
[11:23] echosystm: i never meant any different, sorry if i confused you
[11:24] davidc_: I've created it but also currently making a tornado port and after an expressjs port
[11:24] echosystm: php, do not want lol
[11:24] tempas: echosystm: so if we could be more practical .. /accounts?name=bob -> Controller.get(name) -> Model.get(name) ?
[11:24] davidc_: I know :)
[11:24] echosystm: looks nifty though
[11:25] davidc_: Just look at the concepts
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[11:25] echosystm: yeah
[11:25] echosystm: tempas: the query would likely be handled within the method, not parametized
[11:25] tempas: echosystm: yeah
[11:26] tempas: echosystm: so if we could be more practical .. /accounts?name=bob -> Controller.get(request) -> Model.get(request) ?
[11:26] tempas: it has to be passed inside
[11:26] tempas: somehow
[11:26] davidc_: I never ever want my models to receive anything that doesn't belong to them though.
[11:26] echosystm: ./accounts?name=bob -> Controller.get[contentTypeHere](request)
[11:26] davidc_: Thus in this case, I would argue against passing the whole request
[11:26] echosystm: remember content types
[11:27] echosystm: ideally we could have a persistence framework that could handle a lot of the querying, but i do it manually
[11:27] echosystm: all the software i write is used on our internal network, so we dont really care about overhead
[11:28] echosystm: i pretty much just use the db as a store and do querying in the controller
[11:28] herbySk: guys, I'm confused about you telling what REST is and what not... if I need a "report" including many of the "resources" that are in "model/database", how can I get it when I can only acces the resources directly?
[11:28] echosystm: herbySk: you make a reports collection or resource
[11:28] davidc_: herbySk, you have a collection of reports
[11:28] echosystm: or, you use javascript
[11:29] echosystm: and make the client build the report
[11:29] echosystm: (thats usualyl what you would do)
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[11:29] echosystm: you'll find REST is mainly used with applications using GWT/EXT/SproutCore and similar frameworks where a lot of the logic is on the client
[11:29] sixtus42: herbySk: I'm just going to stress the greatness of this article http://www.infoq.com/articles/webber-rest-workflow (it has downsides too)
[11:29] herbySk: that is, the reports resource is "virtual" in a sense that is it dybnamically computed, not backed by real data
[11:29] echosystm: yep
[11:29] tempas: smart
[11:30] tempas: virtual resources
[11:30] echosystm: thats a scenario where your resource has no model
[11:30] echosystm: its just a controller
[11:30] robinduckett: rofl
[11:30] tempas: how should one emulate that?
[11:30] sixtus42: herbySk: all resources are virtual
[11:30] robinduckett: my crappy chat thing is so popular D:
[11:30] sixtus42: herbySk: some of them just might have an implementation bound to them
[11:30] sixtus42: herbySk: i.e. in true rest design, you think about what uris you need FIRST, then implement them
[11:30] tempas: echosystm: but wouldnt it be cool if Report was a model .. but its labeled "non-persistent" somehow
[11:31] tempas: instead of having it in the controller with some various logic
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[11:31] tempas: so it could be reused also and act like a model , because it is one
[11:31] echosystm: you could do that, but i think it might just confuse people
[11:31] frodenius: a query-resource so to speak?
[11:31] echosystm: most people expect a model to be a persistable db object
[11:31] caolanm: echosystm: I'm interested in where you would handle permissions, in the model?
[11:31] tempas: echosystm: btu it could be a new concept
[11:32] echosystm: permissions, as in auth etc. ?
[11:32] tempas: its like folders .. and virtual folders in Windows .. just containing search results
[11:32] echosystm: ideally in the router, but otherwise in the controller
[11:32] caolanm: echosystm: more authorisation than authentication
[11:32] caolanm: so checking the user has the permissions to add an article etc
[11:32] echosystm: yeah
[11:32] davidc_: echosystm, that's precisely what we do. A collection is just a search of all the resources -- and the ability to add a new item to that search result (creating a new resource in a collection)
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[11:32] echosystm: probably in the controller or router
[11:33] tempas: echosystm: echosystm: so if we could be more practical .. /accounts?name=bob -> Controller.get -> Model.get is really confusing though
[11:33] tempas: couldnt you just get rid of controllers .. introduce "filters" 
[11:33] herbySk: sixtus42: What I use is MVP (I think MVC is not the right thing to describe web, since in MVC view directly observes model), and I think about presenter part first (that is, what uris will I need). But I do not look at them as resources but as requests... that's probably the difference...
[11:33] sixtus42: tempas: I just saw, that google has one of my older reports on what's wrong with mvc -> http://bit.ly/cJgopC
[11:33] echosystm: tempas, you could
[11:33] tempas: everything will have to pass filters instead
[11:33] tempas: thus a new concept
[11:33] echosystm: and thats kind of like what pintura does
[11:33] tempas: request filters -> model -> response filters
[11:34] echosystm: but, i guess im used to calling things controllers
[11:34] davidc_: you could just call them "Viewskers" and you could keep the accronym MVC
[11:34] tempas: yeah
[11:34] echosystm: lol
[11:34] tempas: yeah haha
[11:34] tempas: ViewCons
[11:35] tempas: sixtus42: wow a long article
[11:35] tempas: echosystm: something more that would be good?
[11:35] echosystm: something more on what?
[11:35] tempas: and web 3.0 compliant
[11:35] tempas: framework
[11:35] robinduckett: lol web 3.0
[11:35] sixtus42: tempas: 8 pages including references is long?
[11:36] tempas: sixtus42: seems to be over 70 pages
[11:36] tempas: or did you mean some chapter?
[11:36] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent & Node.js: Comments http://bit.ly/brX8UC" -- Rk Tech. http://twitter.com/arkay_tech/status/2686211143507968
[11:37] caolanm: I'm kind of interested in this permissions thing, does everyone just put it in the controller, because that never felt right to me (although I do it too)
[11:37] sixtus42: tempas: it's a compilation. just the 8 pages the link points to
[11:38] _announcer: Twitter: "I wonder if its possible to make @rubymine aware of node.js methods." -- Christoph Sturm. http://twitter.com/globalo/status/2686475804090368
[11:38] tempas: caolanm: yeah im wondering that too
[11:38] echosystm: caolanm: if you're permissions are completely URI-based, then it makes sense to put it in the router
[11:38] tempas: caolanm: you should read about pinturas approach
[11:38] echosystm: eg. user a can access /whatever/* but not /else/*
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[11:39] caolanm: echosystm: that's the thing, permissions usually have little to do with the URI
[11:39] echosystm: however, if the permissions require some looking into the data that is sent, then it makes sense to put it in the controller
[11:39] _announcer: Twitter: "Ragechat: #nodejs + socket.io powered FFFFFFUUUUU comic chat made by yours truly :)" -- Robin Duckett. http://twitter.com/robinduckett/status/2686786161606656
[11:39] robinduckett: :O that bot is quick
[11:39] echosystm: i think most people just put it in the controller for flexibility
[11:39] jvolkman has joined the channel
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[11:40] _announcer: Twitter: "Older CentOS was very subtle in node.js you try to build the" [ja] -- あくあーら. http://twitter.com/aquarla/status/2687125338198016
[11:40] tempas: is this kind of url common restful: /countries/1/cities/2/neighborhoods/3
[11:40] tempas: or how do you write an hiearchy out
[11:41] echosystm: yes, theres no problem with that
[11:41] davidc_: I agree with such URL without a problem.
[11:41] davidc_: as long as you can also do /cities/2
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[11:41] sixtus42: tempas: a URI is restful, if you can treat it as a black box
[11:41] davidc_: and /neighbourhoods/3 
[11:41] echosystm: alternatively you could just do everything formthe root
[11:41] echosystm: for example.... consider this
[11:41] herbySk: I begin to think there's a lot a categories and problems of where to put what and some sort of free balckboard would be better solution to "controller?model?resource?router?whatelse?" hell... thought I did not yet thought depply to see the pitfalls
[11:41] tempas: is the resource always an id?
[11:41] sixtus42: tempas: a resource is the name of a concept
[11:41] tempas: cant i have /countries/sweden/cities/stockholm/neigbourhoods/kista
[11:42] tempas: cause /countries/sweden looks better 
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[11:42] fangel: sure you can..
[11:42] tempas: but maybe it breaks on /users/peter
[11:42] tempas: cause there are many peter
[11:42] sixtus42: tempas: I think you are worrying about the wrong issues right now ;-)
[11:42] echosystm: imagine we have devices and each device has an indeterminate number of ports
[11:42] echosystm: we have a 1 to many relationship
[11:42] echosystm: you could go /devices/1/ports/8
[11:43] echosystm: or you could go ports/1,8
[11:43] echosystm: or ports?deviceId=1/8
[11:43] echosystm: or something like that
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[11:43] fangel: the more important part is that if you have /x/y/z, then /x/y should also work to et a listing of different z's under /x/y
[11:43] fangel: *to get a..
[11:43] tempas: sixtus42: so then you can't really have names right on the uri .. cause names are not unique..nor firstname + lastname .. maybe usernames or email .. but that would make no sense in /users/my_username
[11:44] echosystm: i try to write my services so that resources can be accessed relative to another resource AND also directly from the root
[11:44] sixtus42: tempas: the concept is unique, what it relates to may differ
[11:44] tempas: echosystm: isnt ports?deviceId=1,8 better?
[11:44] zemanel has joined the channel
[11:44] tempas: what does ports?deviceId=1/8 mean
[11:44] sixtus42: tempas: i.e. /localtime
[11:45] sixtus42: tempas: what would that resolve to? or the current weather in berlin?
[11:45] echosystm: tempas i botched up those examples a bit
[11:45] echosystm: this is what i would do...
[11:45] fangel: restful uri's doesn't imply readable.. though that is prefered.. :)
[11:45] tempas: ok
[11:45] echosystm: ./devices/1/ports/8 or /ports/1,8
[11:45] sixtus42: fangel: yes, getting better
[11:45] zemanel has joined the channel
[11:45] echosystm: alternatively /ports?deviceId=1,port=8/
[11:45] sixtus42: tempas: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
[11:46] tempas: im getting cool links today 
[11:46] echosystm: this is assuming we need the device ID and the port number to uniquely identify a port
[11:46] sixtus42: tempas: you are welcome
[11:46] tempas: has anyone looked at SOAP?
[11:46] sixtus42: tempas: EVIL
[11:46] caolanm: tempas: DON'T DO IT
[11:46] sixtus42: 
ACTION out for lunch, later

[11:46] caolanm: NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo
[11:46] tempas: :)
[11:46] echosystm: the alternative is to make your ports have an automatic ID, like an autonumber in sql
[11:46] davidc_: In my workshops I usually say that URIs are part of API Usability.
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[11:47] davidc_: Unlike frontends there's no nice colors and stuff people can use to make the webservices more usable for developers
[11:47] tempas: davidc_: sounds clever
[11:47] fangel: SOAP is r(imho) really bloated and unnecessary.. but it does work, for what it's worth
[11:47] davidc_: but nice URIs are something that can be done
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[11:47] tempas: yeah its from M$
[11:47] davidc_: Even though I'm a REST advocate, I do believe that SOAP -- be it bloated and overused -- still managed to do some good stuff.
[11:47] davidc_: tempas, IBM was a massive pusher of SOAP
[11:47] tempas: what can one more say
[11:48] echosystm: sixtus42: would  you be interested at all in writing a framework? i think you would have a lot to offer a team
[11:48] tempas: davidc_: it uses XML!
[11:48] davidc_: Because when you have endless computing resources, then SOAP is great ;_)
[11:48] echosystm: ive been considering having a crack at putting a framework together lately
[11:48] tempas: that alone should force everyone to kill it
[11:49] tempas: echosystm: if you were doing that what would you build it upon?
[11:49] echosystm: nodejs
[11:49] tempas: not using middlewares
[11:49] tempas: jsgi?
[11:49] tempas: connect?
[11:49] tanepiper: i watched a talk last night and the company implemented a SOAP API before a REST one, and you should have heard the room groan
[11:49] echosystm: not sure
[11:49] fangel: SOAP is fun in that it's inherently strongly typed, with built in marshaling to native types.. but because of that, it's also really bloated
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[11:49] fangel: also, WSDL files are unnecessarily bloated and impossible to understand
[11:49] davidc_: tanepiper, was it Tyler?
[11:50] tanepiper: davidc_: no, flexiant.com
[11:50] tempas: one very interesting question i have always had
[11:50] davidc_: tanepiper, SOAP itself is a good idea badly implemented in my opinion. Once you have a soap api it's pretty easy to find out what your REST api is going to look like
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[11:50] davidc_: I've heard a bunch of companies did that
[11:50] tanepiper: davidc_: probably, and they have promised a REST api shortly
[11:51] echosystm: SOAP/XMLRPC/JSONRPC and things like that should be done over TCP
[11:51] echosystm: it doesnt make sense to do them over HTTP
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[11:51] echosystm: (in my oppinion)
[11:51] tempas: so we got basically 4 common HTTP verbs right .. acting on resources .. for us to create whatever API we have to act on resources .. the book im reading says that you should when you could turn everything to resource just so that we could act on it through restful or the whole concept would kinda break if we have to hack it (put methods in the request body or uri)
[11:52] davidc_: echosystm, well it could be done over any protocol for what it matters :)
[11:52] tempas: so instead of thinking about "I search" we should think about "I create a search"
[11:52] davidc_: the point is that with the SOAP api they are able to clearly see the operations and what's going to be oeprating on verbs.
[11:52] tempas: hence we could do "get search"
[11:52] tempas: right?
[11:52] echosystm: yes tempas 
[11:52] davidc_: Often the problem is that people doing the REST apis are the same people that did the SOAP api and then... oh god.
[11:52] echosystm: thats one way of looking at it
[11:53] tempas: so instead of "I kill" one can say "I create a kill"
[11:53] echosystm: heres a good example
[11:54] tempas: or "i create kiss"
[11:54] echosystm: at work ( i work at an ISP ) we need to be able to run diagnostics on our network from any point to any other point
[11:54] tempas: cause if we don't we cannot use Restful in the correct way
[11:54] echosystm: eg. ping from A to B, C to A, etc.
[11:54] echosystm: now, since theres no actual resources at play here
[11:55] echosystm: you have to do things like POST to /requests/
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[11:55] echosystm: and the post might be like {source: 'A', destination: 'B'}
[11:55] echosystm: thus, ive just created (POSTed) a request in the requests collection
[11:56] tempas: echosystm: clever
[11:56] tempas: that sounds very restful
[11:56] tempas: you created a request .. gave it the data in the body 
[11:56] echosystm: yep
[11:56] AAA_awright: davidc_: Any horror stories?
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[11:56] tempas: echosystm: you could have different kinds of requests .. eg. ping
[11:56] echosystm: yep
[11:57] echosystm: im yet to find any problem that i cant do RESTfully
[11:57] tempas: POST /ping {a ... b}
[11:57] tempas: cool
[11:57] tempas: i have more faith on restful now
[11:57] echosystm: its obviously aimed at information systems though
[11:57] tempas: hah
[11:57] echosystm: where objects are evident
[11:58] tempas: that means that you can do anything
[11:58] tempas: post a kill request
[11:58] tempas: post a kiss request
[11:58] tempas: =)
[11:58] JimBastard:     code += (Faker[module][method].toString() + ';\n');
[11:58] tempas: as a backup plan
[11:58] JimBastard: that about sums it up
[11:58] robinduckett: marak
[11:58] echosystm: you should try to avoid it though tempas, as thats almost bordering on a kind of RPC
[11:58] tempas: JimBastard: jimmie, hurry!
[11:58] echosystm: if something can be modelled as resources, then do tht
[11:58] JimBastard: im going to SF tomorrow 
[11:59] robinduckett: maraaaak
[12:00] tempas: echosystm: but we should have unpersisted resources too
[12:00] JimBastard: platform is ready i think. we could try to deploy an app 
[12:00] tempas: i think its a very cool concept
[12:00] JimBastard: tempas: whats that?
[12:00] davidc_: AAA_awright, from? Moving from SOAP to REST?
[12:00] robinduckett: fffuuu
[12:00] AAA_awright: davidc_: Yeah
[12:00] davidc_: Good god not personally, I would never do this.
[12:00] tempas: JimBastard: no talking about restful
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[12:00] davidc_: But companies I've been talking to seem to have done it without too much hassle I guess.
[12:00] robinduckett: JimBastard: sup
[12:00] JimBastard: hey robinduckett 
[12:00] davidc_: Even though they are the kind of company that get you to sign an agreement to not talk about the API in public :D
[12:00] davidc_: hah
[12:00] robinduckett: did you see my ragechat thing?
[12:00] _announcer: Twitter: "License Applicants - slow - I node.js followed by the ML (mostly CLA?) Summary of the discussion on patent # nodejs_jp" [ja] -- koichik. http://twitter.com/koichik/status/2692205206577152
[12:00] JimBastard: tempas: https://github.com/marak/webservice.js
[12:00] JimBastard: robinduckett: where?
[12:00] robinduckett: http://www.ragechat.com
[12:01] davidc_: So who's from joyent here?
[12:01] robinduckett: socket.io chat but with FFFUUU rage faces
[12:01] tempas: JimBastard: yeah ive seen it
[12:01] JimBastard: robinduckett: you want traffic? i can get you traffic
[12:01] robinduckett: D:
[12:01] robinduckett: wha
[12:01] tempas: very premature though .. hope it will grow and be added with more features
[12:01] JimBastard: seriously?
[12:01] MattJ has joined the channel
[12:01] robinduckett: sure
[12:01] JimBastard: lets turn on the fire hose
[12:01] robinduckett: :(
[12:01] robinduckett: *watches his app die*
[12:02] tempas: davidc_: ryan dahl
[12:02] tempas: our father
[12:02] robinduckett: JimBastard: what are you doing? :/
[12:02] _announcer: Twitter: "Ok I need someone to tell me what the node.js move to joyent means in terms of collaborating and committing to node.js. Any change?" -- David Coallier. http://twitter.com/davidcoallier/status/2692605942960128
[12:02] davidc_: Tehre that's me.
[12:02] davidc_: the latest tweet
[12:03] davidc_: Let's hope I get a public reply. I want to know if it means CLA, or if it'll remain on github with same license and whatnot.
[12:03] davidc_: Just some re-assurance really :)
[12:03] tempas: echosystm: anything else except for Restful you need out of the box in a web framework?
[12:03] tempas: how about the persistence layer?
[12:03] tempas: nosql? sql?
[12:03] tempas: and how should it work
[12:04] davidc_: tempas, if you look at frapi for instance, I'm always asked if there's a library to do x and y and my response is
[12:04] davidc_: Let me find the exact slide actually.
[12:04] echosystm: well, i think a web framework should just handle the routing/deserialisation etc.
[12:04] robinduckett: who else saw that mysql .so driver to turn mysql into nosql?
[12:04] echosystm: persistence framework and templating should be sparate
[12:04] robinduckett: 
ACTION is worried

[12:05] robinduckett: JimBastard: I'm haxd
[12:05] robinduckett: so
[12:05] robinduckett: yeah.
[12:05] JimBastard: robinduckett: ?
[12:05] robinduckett: in the chat
[12:05] JimBastard: lol already ?
[12:05] robinduckett: ?
[12:05] JimBastard: i just posted to 4chan
[12:05] robinduckett: my nickname is haxd
[12:05] echosystm: alright, im off to bed
[12:05] robinduckett: bastard
[12:05] echosystm: peace out hombres
[12:05] robinduckett: how dare you
[12:05] robinduckett: :(
[12:05] robinduckett: hehe
[12:05] davidc_: tempas, http://www.slideshare.net/david.coallier/restful-apis-and-frapi-a-matter-of-minutes <-- see slide #49
[12:06] robinduckett: so like
[12:06] robinduckett: how much time do i have
[12:06] davidc_: If it's a RESTful "framework" then don't loose focus with other types of libraries, there's shitloads of code out there. Focus on doing it correctly.
[12:06] robinduckett: before people start trying to destroy me
[12:06] robinduckett: someone already tried a Nikto vuln check on it
[12:06] robinduckett: lol
[12:06] davidc_: robinduckett, too late.
[12:06] robinduckett: :(
[12:06] davidc_: :P
[12:06] robinduckett: fucking
[12:06] robinduckett: 4chan
[12:06] robinduckett: :(
[12:06] JohnDav has joined the channel
[12:06] tempas: how is XML-RPC compared to restful?
[12:07] tempas: its like soap?
[12:07] robinduckett: getting a lot of connections from people with browsers that don't work with socket.io
[12:07] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent will soon be to Node.js what Zend became to PHP: http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/956a3431b1d9e937?pli=1" -- p6. http://twitter.com/p6/status/2693958668914688
[12:07] tempas: and does Restful say anything about Sessions/Cookies?
[12:08] robinduckett: JimBastard: I hope to god it gets 404'd
[12:09] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js קיבלה חסות מחברת Joynet http://goo.gl/fb/X2tEr" -- Linmagazine. http://twitter.com/linmagazine/status/2694292002840577
[12:09] davidc_: tempas, a true restful service won't have anything on the API side that has a state.
[12:09] davidc_: Thus sessions/cookies are pointless. Every single request is self-contained.
[12:09] ledil has joined the channel
[12:09] ledil: hello
[12:09] tempas: hmm
[12:10] davidc_: You could have third party systems that issue tokens (ala OAuth) 
[12:10] tempas: that sounds radical
[12:10] davidc_: tempas, it is.
[12:10] JimBastard: yo robinduckett 
[12:10] tempas: davidc_: so with every requests they are resending the authentication token?
[12:10] tempas: so i know its them?
[12:10] JimBastard: remove the chat feature, only allow rage faces, add a real-time photo upload feature
[12:11] JimBastard: boom
[12:11] stagas: anyone got some regexp resource
[12:11] robinduckett: lol
[12:11] robinduckett: why Jim
[12:11] davidc_: tempas, using the Authentication headers yeas.
[12:11] JimBastard: it will be amazing
[12:11] JimBastard: no one wants to chat
[12:11] tempas: and how about the media content type .. should it be on the URI /users.json or in the header (Content-Type: application/json)
[12:11] robinduckett: heh
[12:11] tempas: are there rules to be Restful on that one
[12:11] robinduckett: realtime 4chan
[12:11] robinduckett: would be funny as fuck
[12:12] stagas: robinduckett: I think there's a photo snapshot from webcam javascript thing recently
[12:12] JimBastard: i do users.json
[12:12] tempas: JimBastard: but the question is .. is that restful compliant =)
[12:12] stagas: with a flash underneath
[12:12] tempas: not that it means anything =)
[12:12] robinduckett: JimBastard: hmm?
[12:12] JimBastard: tempas: oxymoron
[12:12] tempas: oxymoron?
[12:12] JimBastard: restful is a style
[12:12] tempas: its the truth!
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[12:12] JimBastard: REST is a protocol 
[12:13] tempas: it is?
[12:13] sth: REST is a standard
[12:13] JimBastard: errr
[12:13] tempas: yeah
[12:13] sth: not a protocol as such
[12:13] tempas: standard
[12:13] JimBastard: no HTTP is the protocol
[12:13] JimBastard: REST is not
[12:13] JimBastard: oops
[12:13] davidc_: REST isn't a protocol.
[12:13] stagas: robinduckett: just make everyone add a photo as a smiley and chat with their faces as smileys lol
[12:13] JimBastard: it is 7am here
[12:13] stride: you can have REST without HTTP
[12:13] tempas: back to my question 
[12:13] tempas: is /users.json restful
[12:13] JimBastard: well
[12:13] tempas: i think the book covered it .. i forgot
[12:13] JimBastard: file extensions make sense to me
[12:14] sth: tempas: I'd just force it in the accept header
[12:14] JimBastard: its the extension of the resource as a file?
[12:14] sth: and then remove the extension
[12:14] tempas: JimBastard: no a database 
[12:14] JimBastard: take the resource and serialize into a file of the following format
[12:14] tempas: in a db
[12:14] JimBastard: .json, .pdf, .txt, .xml, .html
[12:14] tempas: why would i do that
[12:14] sveisvei has joined the channel
[12:14] tempas: it will be 1000 00000 files
[12:15] tempas: all over
[12:15] tempas: no no no
[12:15] JimBastard: ?
[12:15] _announcer: Twitter: "Did i get this right? #node.js going #corporate ? http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/956a3431b1d9e937?pli=1" -- chris polzer. http://twitter.com/polzifer/status/2695828091183106
[12:15] sth: I hate APIs that force extensions rather than just looking at the Accept header
[12:15] robinduckett: well i'm glad that I secured XSS before you 4channed me.
[12:15] JimBastard: sth: yeah i guess that makes sense
[12:15] tempas: sth: now i remember .. the book said /users.json and /users.xml should be different resources
[12:15] robinduckett: luckily your firehose turned out to be a splash.
[12:15] JimBastard: but then you cant get easy shortcuts
[12:15] robinduckett: :D
[12:16] JimBastard: robinduckett: i figured no one posted to reddit yet
[12:16] robinduckett: JimBastard: I did
[12:16] robinduckett: like
[12:16] robinduckett: four times
[12:16] robinduckett: no one wants real time love
[12:16] tempas:    /users with content type xml or json is pointing to the same resource 
[12:16] tempas: if we follow the standard
[12:16] robinduckett: JimBastard: all my referrals are coming from /r/fffffffuuuuuuuu
[12:17] JimBastard: yea
[12:17] _announcer: Twitter: "I wish people would stop worrying about the #nodejs / joynet thing - It could have been worse, Oracle could have bought nodejs out!" -- Tane Piper. http://twitter.com/tanepiper/status/2696317704867840
[12:17] sth: tempas: .xml & .json should return the same thing, except formatted to their individual format
[12:17] robinduckett: which is odd considering i didn't post it as a link to /r/fuuuuuuu
[12:18] sth: which means, you might as well just do Accept: application/json or application/xml
[12:18] tempas: sth: yeah .. i know but according to restful if you specify like that they should point to different resources
[12:18] tempas: because the URI is used for locating a resource
[12:18] tanepiper: robinduckett: i posted it to /r/fuuuuuu
[12:18] robinduckett: tane: you're facedjared?
[12:18] tanepiper: nope, i'm tanepiper
[12:18] robinduckett: shit how many people posted this
[12:19] tanepiper: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/e3y8p/rfffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu_rage_chat/
[12:19] robinduckett: that's posted to /r/reddit.com
[12:19] tanepiper: oh wait, i thought i posted it in /r/fuuuu, but it went into reddit
[12:19] tanepiper: do'h
[12:19] tempas: so theoretically they should point to different resources .. but people have used it as a shortcut to give back different formats
[12:19] robinduckett: haha
[12:19] tempas: even Rails is using this
[12:19] robinduckett: I already posted it to reddit.com too
[12:19] robinduckett: sigh
[12:20] robinduckett: i need more mates
[12:20] robinduckett: to upvote my shit
[12:20] robinduckett: so i can fp in style
[12:20] _announcer: Twitter: "this is a very cool node.js thing: https://github.com/substack/dnode" -- spottedkangaroo. http://twitter.com/spottedkangaroo/status/2697135535423488
[12:20] tempas: but Rails is also looking at Content-type header 
[12:20] tempas: kinda dull to be looking at two places for one thing
[12:21] tempas: so i just do what Restful was meant to do .. i look only in header
[12:21] tempas: makes sense cause you already are having a lot of header options you can use .. why not use it for format too instead of putting some hacks on the URI
[12:21] _announcer: Twitter: "Free preview book: “Node.js Book Project” by Tom Hughes-Croucher. http://tinyurl.com/35m3668 /src @ydn" -- Michael Lore. http://twitter.com/ancientlore/status/2697516927680512
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[12:23] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Bladiblub my support Javascript (node.js 4tw). hahaha u fail #" [de] -- Dennis Boysen. http://twitter.com/Heikus/status/2697808238870529
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[12:24] JimBastard: robinduckett: implement rooms too lol
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[12:25] robinduckett: yeah
[12:25] robinduckett: I just said
[12:25] robinduckett: lol
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[12:25] robinduckett: so people like my ragechat? [](/yey)
[12:28] robinduckett: hmm
[12:28] robinduckett: Why couldn't I kick the devo guy :/
[12:28] robinduckett: I'll have to make the userlist include sessionids
[12:29] robinduckett: and some way to ipban
[12:30] agnat has joined the channel
[12:31] robinduckett: Jim: help me do flood protection plz? lol
[12:31] robinduckett: I tried and phaled.
[12:31] robinduckett: JimBastard even
[12:31] JimBastard: how?
[12:32] robinduckett: I'll put the code somewhere where the 4channers can't reveal my xss
[12:32] robinduckett: :D
[12:32] JimBastard: implement a throttle class in socket.io or something
[12:32] robinduckett: I tried
[12:32] JimBastard: that can do it per connection or per connection group
[12:32] robinduckett: hm
[12:32] JimBastard: i dunno
[12:32] robinduckett: Okay
[12:32] robinduckett: I'll have a test when i get home
[12:32] robinduckett: in work at the moment
[12:32] JimBastard: donuts
[12:32] JimBastard: kk
[12:33] davidc_: Donuts. I like them. They like me.
[12:33] robinduckett: JimBastard
[12:33] robinduckett: http://i.imgur.com/bLSxS.jpg
[12:33] robinduckett: ROFLMAO
[12:33] robinduckett: someone made a rage comic about it
[12:33] robinduckett: haha
[12:34] JimBastard: lol
[12:34] _announcer: Twitter: "Creating safe and composable 'mixins' with traits.js - How To Node - NodeJS http://ow.ly/19V0PO" -- Javascript News. http://twitter.com/del_javascript/status/2700778783379457
[12:34] robinduckett: this time yesterday
[12:34] robinduckett: not one person was on the chat
[12:34] robinduckett: today
[12:34] robinduckett: wtf
[12:37] stagas: robinduckett: onmessage: user[id].messages++; clearTimeout(user[id].timeout); user[id].timeout = setTimeout[function() { user[id].message = 0 }, 5000); if (user[id].messages>max_messages) { blockhim() }
[12:37] _announcer: Twitter: "It&#39;ll be nice @ kimuraya node.js" [ja] -- exleaf. http://twitter.com/exleaf/status/2701351997935616
[12:38] _announcer: Twitter: "Clojure, Node.js and Concurrency Fail http://bit.ly/dk6Yd4" -- Simone Casciaroli. http://twitter.com/simonecasc/status/2701645347557377
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[12:39] robinduckett: stagas: can i modify client. and it actually save
[12:39] robinduckett: ?
[12:39] robinduckett: or is it rebuilt by the server
[12:40] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Zau6er Oh, node.js of Ru is to dis far!" [ja] -- 零那@底なし沼の魔女. http://twitter.com/MegaBlackLabel/status/2702122504159232
[12:40] stagas: I guess you can, but you can have another object and copy the users in
[12:40] robinduckett: stagas: i've got a users object
[12:40] robinduckett: i'll give it a try.
[12:41] stagas: setTimeout is very handy for these jobs
[12:41] sixtus42: 
ACTION back from lunch, did I miss anything ;-)

[12:41] stagas: you can have another one to unblock him after a few minutes too
[12:42] robinduckett: stagas: i'll just kick them
[12:42] robinduckett: and when they come back it will reset.
[12:42] robinduckett: it takes like 10 seconds for the client to realise it's been disconnected sometimes.
[12:42] stagas: but they might write a script that joins on kick
[12:42] robinduckett: then they're okay in my book
[12:42] robinduckett: because they can code
[12:42] robinduckett: if that makes any sense
[12:43] stagas: they can code a throttler lower than your limits too
[12:43] stagas: and still flood but in intervals :P
[12:43] robinduckett: yeah
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[12:43] robinduckett: i suppose i could use evercookie
[12:43] robinduckett: to store a ban
[12:43] robinduckett: but they could get around that
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[12:44] robinduckett: http://samy.pl/evercookie/ is evil
[12:44] robinduckett: but in this case
[12:44] robinduckett: evil begets evil.
[12:44] davidc_: haha yeah :)
[12:45] robinduckett: right
[12:45] robinduckett: just getting my todos
[12:45] robinduckett: in order
[12:47] _announcer: Twitter: "webOS2.0 node.js equipped with equipped with a Palm Pre2 it released in Japan! Hashtag called for a campaign. # Come_on_pre" [ja] -- koichik. http://twitter.com/koichik/status/2704071811145728
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[12:48] robinduckett: right my todos for today have 5 items, then i will not work on it again until tomorrow.
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[12:51] robinduckett: JimBastard
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[13:10] ledil: hello, are there other ways (instead using a socket) to communicate with a node.js instance ? (searching for other IPC solutions)
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[13:12] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js going under Joyent's umbrella: http://j.mp/9yCIH2 joint will sell Node hosting instances." -- Mike Loukides. http://twitter.com/mikeloukides/status/2710348377366528
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[13:19] _announcer: Twitter: "Looks like node will be getting some love. #nodejs  http://bit.ly/9NgtRX" -- Jason Mooberry. http://twitter.com/jasonmoo/status/2711935720095745
[13:20] sixtus42: ledil: what are you thinking of?
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[13:25] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Kolman Hang released soon ... &quot;install node.js&quot; @ the source:) In addition, Cygwin is a second chance @ virtualmastercz." [cs] -- Jakub Nesetril. http://twitter.com/jakubnesetril/status/2713400907923456
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[13:27] _announcer: Twitter: "Can anyone recommend a mysql module for node.js? There's so many to choose from..." -- Colin Lyons. http://twitter.com/lyonscf/status/2713906338340865
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[13:36] _announcer: Twitter: "Between node.js and Rhino I can write Javascript code and still pretend that I'm not a Javascript programmer! :p" -- fogus. http://twitter.com/fogus/status/2716181488214016
[13:36] robinduckett: JimBastard: 
[13:36] _announcer: Twitter: "@kaptencybear If you haven't found a venue for Server-side Javascript with Node.js, you can use DR Byen (my work place)" -- Ian Jørgensen. http://twitter.com/ianjorgensen/status/2716415794618368
[13:38] _announcer: Twitter: "Finally broke down and wrote some Node.js using couchdb-node and the changesStream...beats writing java NIO #couchdb" -- Ryan Richt. http://twitter.com/ryan_richt/status/2716677317853184
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[13:39] mAritz: fuckiny ruby... can anyone here tell me how i'm supposed to properly install sass in debian? :x
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[13:40] _announcer: Twitter: "Server-side javascript FTW, Node.js: Building a Simple Web Service http://bit.ly/b9gaY1@kdamienn" -- Jeff Nazarian. http://twitter.com/jeffnazarian/status/2717277115908096
[13:40] tisba has joined the channel
[13:40] _cheerios: what's the problem with ruby?
[13:42] mAritz: well, if i do "gem install haml" it says: "don't have write permissions into the /usr/lib/ruby1.9/gems/". if i do it with sudo, it installs it but then can't be used without sudo. and i don't feel like giving haml/sass superuser privileges.
[13:42] mAritz: i'm stupid here, help!
[13:45] splashs: mAritz: gem install ?
[13:46] mAritz: yes. rubygems
[13:46] splashs: what's the problem.
[13:46] mAritz: what i just wrote :D
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[13:46] _cheerios: should work fine as a normal user, via /usr/lib/ruby1.9/gems/.../sass or whatever gem you're installing
[13:47] mAritz: last time i tried it didn't :(
[13:47] robinduckett: mAritz: people be haxing my chat :(
[13:47] robinduckett: JimBastard 4channed it
[13:47] mAritz: ahahahaha :D
[13:47] mAritz: robinduckett: you asked for it!
[13:48] robinduckett: How did I ask for it?!
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[13:49] mAritz: (11:15:17 AM) robinduckett: feel free to break it
[13:49] mAritz: BAM!
[13:50] robinduckett: hah.
[13:50] robinduckett: fuckin' logs
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[13:51] robinduckett: someone last night
[13:51] robinduckett: was xssing me hardcore
[13:51] robinduckett: i fixed the issues
[13:51] robinduckett: but he was like, changing my name and shit
[13:51] robinduckett: lol
[13:51] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: Building a Simple Web Service http://bit.ly/b9gaY1 @kdamienn" -- Jeff Nazarian. http://twitter.com/jeffnazarian/status/2720178089492480
[13:51] robinduckett: i thought i'd protected that
[13:52] robinduckett: fucking xss
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[13:52] robinduckett: changing it in the client but not on the server
[13:52] jetienne has joined the channel
[13:53] robinduckett: hmm
[13:53] robinduckett: anyone know how i can clear the terminal with node?
[13:53] robinduckett: so i can make an animated thinger
[13:53] robinduckett: or a ncurses node thing
[13:54] robinduckett: i got it
[13:54] robinduckett: https://github.com/isaacs/node-ncurses
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[13:59] _announcer: Twitter: "Twitter uses "node.js to compile less.js CSS into regular CSS before serving it in production" http://rb.tl/cHtgSb" -- Robert Brook. http://twitter.com/robertbrook/status/2722163882725376
[14:01] robinduckett: !seen isaacs
[14:01] robinduckett: hm :(
[14:03] mAritz: last time i saw him was yesterday 03:54:06 AM gmt+1
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[14:05] robinduckett: i don't know if the ncurses lib in npm is his or someone elses
[14:05] robinduckett: how can i find out?
[14:05] mape: robinduckett: hmm it isn't
[14:05] mape: the author of that starts with m
[14:06] robinduckett: mscdex
[14:06] mape: yup
[14:06] robinduckett: k
[14:06] robinduckett: isaacs looks better
[14:06] robinduckett: but i can't find ncurses++ anywhere
[14:06] robinduckett: well
[14:06] robinduckett: i found *something*
[14:06] mape: isaac just put it on npm?
[14:06] dberlinger has joined the channel
[14:06] robinduckett: but it won't install
[14:06] mape: Don't think he forked it
[14:06] mape: as in altering code
[14:06] robinduckett: yeah isaac forked it
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[14:06] robinduckett: ah
[14:06] robinduckett: sure
[14:06] robinduckett: he altered the code
[14:06] mape: oh k
[14:06] robinduckett: hmm
[14:07] robinduckett: although mscdex changed it a lot more since
[14:07] robinduckett: yeah
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[14:12] _announcer: Twitter: "My latest SlideShare upload : @techmeetup Edinburgh nodejs talk http://slidesha.re/dCNl7X" -- Tane Piper. http://twitter.com/tanepiper/status/2725226542534656
[14:14] robinduckett: fffuuu
[14:14] robinduckett: segfault
[14:16] robinduckett: fine
[14:16] robinduckett: anyone know how i can just clear the terminal
[14:16] robinduckett: with node
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[14:18] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js Mac, easy travel, npm put Kusa Kusa. curl http://npmjs.org/install.sh | sudo sh" [ja] -- yoshitaka fujisawa. http://twitter.com/yoshifuji_tokyo/status/2726774878244864
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[14:20] robinduckett: No one?
[14:20] robinduckett: fu
[14:21] stride: childprocess.spawn("clear"); var i=100; while(i--) {console.log('');} 
[14:21] stride: there you go
[14:21] stride: :>
[14:21] tanepiper: hrmm: http://www.quora.com/Node-js/What-companies-are-using-Node-js-in-production/answer/Luke-Andrews
[14:21] _announcer: Twitter: "there are sooo many things going on with nodejs and all of their names have a js at the end. latest that i came to know of .. traitsjs" -- truebuddi. http://twitter.com/truebuddi/status/2727696803045377
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[14:23] agnat: robinduckett: console.log('\033[2J');
[14:24] robinduckett: cool, now to build ncurses emulator.
[14:25] jetienne: pquerna: good one on the cla matter
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[14:26] gudmundur: 7
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[14:26] robinduckett: agnat: thanks
[14:26] robinduckett: does anyone know if stdin.on('end') ever actually fires?
[14:26] tprice: would webm for video be an odd format?
[14:26] robinduckett: tprice: eh
[14:27] robinduckett: webm is a video format isn't it?
[14:27] gudmundur: Hi, I'm using net.Stream (obtained via net.createConnection) to do some tcp communication, for some reason the stream isn't writable when I connect to remote hosts, but they are on localhost. Any bids on what I'm doing wrong?
[14:27] tprice: its part of the standard now right?
[14:27] robinduckett: it only works on like
[14:27] robinduckett: chrome
[14:27] tprice: but its part of the 3 that are going in?
[14:27] tprice: .mp3 .ogv .webm?
[14:28] tprice: they should just pick one
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[14:28] _announcer: Twitter: "#nodeJS (http://nodejs.org) is a cool JS server. It's damn fast, easy to install/run and a lot fun. I think I'll use it for my next project." -- Tim Czubayko. http://twitter.com/timmes/status/2729420267720704
[14:29] jetienne: tprice: webm works on all major browsers
[14:29] tprice: from firefox site “As pioneers of HTML5 video standards, Firefox also supports the WebM format so you can watch open HD quality video.”
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[14:29] robinduckett: fair enough
[14:29] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Timmes Phew indeed. NodeJS. Have you ever done something with asynchronicity there? I come in the context of databases manage somehow not." [de] -- Antonius. http://twitter.com/synthomat/status/2729697385390082
[14:30] jetienne: http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html <- tprice the definitive guide of video codec and the web
[14:30] stride: webm support is pretty irrelevant, that's just the container format. the real deal is the war between vp8 and h264 iirc
[14:30] tprice: i just want to know if you think its an odd format
[14:30] jetienne: tprice: what do you mean by odd
[14:31] tprice: avi is not an odd format
[14:31] tprice: maybe wmv ahah is?
[14:31] tprice: im just thinking
[14:31] jetienne: stride: webm=vp8 + vorbis
[14:32] jetienne: tprice: do i think it is "odd" ? no. but odd doesnt mean anything here. 
[14:32] stride: jetienne: oh is that limited? I thought it could encapsulate other a/v codecs as well. good to know, thanks
[14:33] jetienne: stride: webm got a single goal. to remove the patent issue with the audio video codec
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[14:33] tprice: well this is a rule from some site
[14:33] tprice:  # Any TV related material is allowed, but please no odd formats. Stick to the usual avi/mkv etc.
[14:33] jetienne: stride: google owns vp8 ip and vorbis is supposedly patent free
[14:33] tprice: and then someone says webm is odd what the hell
[14:33] jetienne: tprice: webm is a subpart of mkv
[14:33] stride: hmkay :)
[14:34] tprice: yeah i know what webm is
[14:34] jetienne: tprice: just you dont know if it is odd ? :)
[14:35] tprice: jetienne: im asking if you irc people think it is
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[14:36] _announcer: Twitter: "Github gist, Connect your IMAP server through node.js: http://is.gd/gW6S3" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2731448301785088
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[14:39] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Synthomat up just yet. Which databases do you have problems? # NodeJS" [de] -- Tim Czubayko. http://twitter.com/timmes/status/2732107835117568
[14:40] jamescarr has joined the channel
[14:40] jamescarr: hmmm
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[14:41] jamescarr: I had an interesting question yesterday when I did a presentation on websockets. Someone asked if having the connection always open was a con
[14:41] Aikar: lol...
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[14:42] robinduckett: jamescarr: did you tell him that it wasn't? :P#
[14:43] jamescarr: I mean, he saw it as a bad thing because if the site gets hit, will the server run out of connections
[14:45] robinduckett: i think you'd start worrying about other things before the connection limit is reached
[14:45] robinduckett: like what you're going to do with all that ad revenue
[14:46] appajee: newbie question here - how do you guys keep multiple versions of node - using nvm Or ...
[14:46] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent are now supporting the development of Node.js. More developers will be working on it full time. http://bit.ly/aY1nsW #thisisgood" -- Bill Williams. http://twitter.com/flpatriot/status/2733849998004224
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[14:47] _announcer: Twitter: "Good news for #nodejs? http://bit.ly/9Ye4X3 - you be the judge" -- Ryan Rose. http://twitter.com/rsrose/status/2734193888989184
[14:50] tanepiper: what is it with people and thinking yesterday was Friday?
[14:50] tanepiper: http://howtonode.org/traitsjs <-- note the date
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[14:52] _announcer: Twitter: "I use #nodejs, #couchdb, and #jQuery at work. What do you do all day? #javascripteverywhere #rockstobeme #promotejs" -- Jeremy Martin. http://twitter.com/jmar777/status/2735472161849344
[14:52] robinduckett: fuck
[14:52] robinduckett: someone xssed
[14:53] _announcer: Twitter: "Arg ... my dev env. for #nodejs #expressjs is ooooold on this machine ... i should take more carebefore i leave my home on that one" -- Sebastian Schürmann. http://twitter.com/sschuermann/status/2735680652320769
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[14:55] robinduckett: right
[14:55] robinduckett: how the fuck
[14:55] robinduckett: do i block
[14:55] robinduckett: //--&gt;&lt;/SCRIPT>">'><SCRIPT>window.location=String.fromCharCode(104,116,116,112,58,47,47,109,101,97,116,115,112,105,110,46,99,111,109,47)</SCRIPT>
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[14:58] _announcer: Twitter: "The gain in node.js GAE is .... http://ow.ly/38a16" [ja] -- yoshitaka fujisawa. http://twitter.com/yoshifuji_tokyo/status/2737022997368832
[14:58] sriley: escape the special chars?
[14:59] robinduckett: i did
[14:59] robinduckett: i forgot to /g the regex
[14:59] robinduckett: so it only did the first one
[14:59] robinduckett: roflmao
[14:59] robinduckett: fucking redditos
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[14:59] jetienne: 'http://meatspin.com/' == String.fromCharCode(104,116,116,112,58,47,47,109,101,97,116,115,112,105,110,46,99,111,109,47)
[15:00] sriley: what chars are you encoding?
[15:00] robinduckett: yeah
[15:00] robinduckett: i know it's meatspin
[15:00] jetienne: why going thru the trouble of this weird coding ?
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[15:00] robinduckett: jetienne: the guy who constrcuted that thought i had a block for meatspin
[15:01] robinduckett: there he is now
[15:01] robinduckett: infact
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[15:01] jetienne: mouamoua .
[15:01] robinduckett: *look of disapproval*
[15:01] sriley: be sure to do all you need (& < > ' and ") also... incase youre not already you should strip invalid utf8 chars
[15:01] sergeb: Hallo?
[15:01] jetienne: this is some kind of weirdo porn site
[15:01] robinduckett: hallo
[15:01] robinduckett: jetienne: 
[15:01] robinduckett: don't go on meatspin.com
[15:01] robinduckett: fool
[15:01] sergeb: Sory for that meatspin :D.
[15:01] robinduckett: lol
[15:01] _announcer: Twitter: "#nodejs discussed tonight in Seattle tonight at 6:45 http://is.gd/gWaXI" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2737761975009280
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[15:02] sergeb: *sorry
[15:02] robinduckett: that's fine
[15:02] robinduckett: you can help me fix it :P
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[15:02] sriley: since you can supply the first byte of a 3byte utf8 char and it will cause older ie browers to skip the next two chars and can result in attribute injection which will result in xss
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[15:03] robinduckett: sriley: but only IE?
[15:03] robinduckett: lol
[15:03] robinduckett: I kid.
[15:03] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js doing a little test application I am making? http://node.powny.net/" [nl] -- Dave de Fijter. http://twitter.com/fijter/status/2738134945107968
[15:03] robinduckett: So how would I go about checking that in JS?
[15:03] sergeb: Here's the exploit again: //--></SCRIPT>">'><SCRIPT>window.location=String.fromCharCode(104,116,116,112,58,47,47,109,101,97,116,115,112,105,110,46,99,111,109,47)</SCRIPT>
[15:03] robinduckett: sergeb: i know
[15:03] robinduckett: server log
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[15:04] sergeb: robinduckett: Ah, okay.
[15:04] tmedema: Hi there, what's the main difference between a static and dynamic file webserver? And which of the two has the most actively developed libraries?
[15:04] _announcer: Twitter: "Very interesting - DNode , a #nodejs library for asynchronous, bidirectional remote method  invocation: http://is.gd/gWbdS by @substack" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2738376616710144
[15:04] sriley: yes only older ie browser are susceptible to that, not sure how to check the utf8 are valid chars or if its needed in js
[15:04] sergeb: Can't really help you fix it though, never used node.js in my life.
[15:04] robinduckett: node.js is just chrome's javascript engine really
[15:04] _announcer: Twitter: "Then two. . . http://dl.dropbox.com/u/219436/node.js/handson/build/html/index.html WebSocket and Server Side jQuery" [ja] -- Yohei Sasaki. http://twitter.com/yssk22/status/2738553444376576
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[15:05] sergeb: I never really understood what node.js really is.
[15:06] sergeb: From what I understand, this is some library in thich you can use JS to write server applications?
[15:06] robinduckett: yeah
[15:06] robinduckett: kind of
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[15:06] robinduckett: it's the v8 engine
[15:06] sergeb: ...why would you want to use JS?
[15:06] robinduckett: with a good api for doing other stuff
[15:06] _announcer: Twitter: "Woot for node.js! http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/956a3431b1d9e937" -- Joe Langeway. http://twitter.com/joelangeway/status/2738923553955840
[15:06] robinduckett: why would you want to use ruby?
[15:06] sergeb: I don't know. I'd use Python :P.
[15:06] gkatsev: you can use node.js for more than just servers
[15:06] robinduckett: it's got an eventmachine like thing
[15:06] robinduckett: everything is evented
[15:06] gkatsev: it has file apis and stuff as well.
[15:07] rwaldron__ has joined the channel
[15:07] robinduckett: io networks etc
[15:07] sergeb: I see.
[15:07] robinduckett: it's good shit
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[15:07] robinduckett: it's what ragechat is built in
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[15:07] gkatsev: you can use it for a lot of stuff you could use python now, actually.
[15:07] batasrki: sergeb: it's like twisted for python, but in JS
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[15:07] robinduckett: yeah not the place to have arguments against js/node really seeing as everyone in here is a fuckin' fanboi.
[15:07] sergeb: I just don't really like anything ECMAScript :P
[15:07] batasrki: sergeb: but since JS has nice closure syntax and first class functions, it maps better than python or ruby
[15:07] _announcer: Twitter: "#twitter irritadingly and automatically rename node.js to node when I enter node.js in my Twitter Profile" -- Henry Bai Shuyong. http://twitter.com/henry_bai/status/2739318166650880
[15:08] jvolkman-work: sergeb: so why are you here? :)
[15:08] sergeb: batasrki: If I wanted to use closures and something that has first-class functions I'd use Lua :P
[15:08] sergeb: jvolkman-work: Because I got invited by robinduckett.
[15:08] robinduckett: jvolkman-work: he xss'd my chat app
[15:08] c4milo: sergeb: it's a powerful language, many people know it. With nodejs you have a API to build complex things easily, mostly networking things, but there are also frameworks to build different types of applications 
[15:08] robinduckett: so i invited him here to chat and stuff
[15:08] _announcer: Twitter: "Another of @ryah's outstanding #nodejs Google Talks: http://youtu.be/F6k8lTrAE2g" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2739474949734400
[15:08] lianj: batasrki: how is closure syntax nicer in js than say ruby? in what world?
[15:08] sergeb: c4milo: Well okay , I guess it's just a matter of personal preference :P.
[15:09] rwaldron_ has joined the channel
[15:09] robinduckett: indeed
[15:09] c4milo: sergeb: like all the things with software :) 
[15:09] sergeb: I like my JS mixed with jQuery, thank you :P.
[15:09] batasrki: lianj: first-class functions map easier in js than ruby
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[15:10] sergeb: But yes, some parts of JS are nice. The way closures are implemented in JS is IMVO the best. I hate Python's lambdas.
[15:10] c4milo: sergeb: another thing is that you can share code between server and client :) 
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[15:11] _announcer: Twitter: "great news for node.js and javascripters everywhere! node.js gets corporate backing: http://is.gd/gWcnh" -- Oren Mazor. http://twitter.com/orenmazor/status/2740236366905344
[15:11] sergeb: c4milo: I do some Lua for Garry's Mod (a HL2 mod), and boy, client<->server communication is a pain there. Basically you send a file that you want to execute on the client, then use datastreams to communicate. How is it implemented on node.js?
[15:11] lianj: batasrki: its taste, i dont see how they map easier
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[15:12] robinduckett: sergeb: I use socket.io
[15:12] _announcer: Twitter: "Old news, but seeing as we're new, in case you don't know: WebOS now shipping with #nodejs replacing Java bindings: http://is.gd/gWcr4" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2740375550689281
[15:12] robinduckett: for browser communication
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[15:12] gkatsev: node.js has socket.io-node and other such stuff which allows for websockets with fallbacks down to just regular ajax calls
[15:12] robinduckett: which an abstraction layer for websockets / flashsockets / xhr-polling
[15:12] c4milo: sergeb: socket.io or you can use juggernaut as well 
[15:12] gkatsev: as in, socket.io has the fallbacks
[15:12] robinduckett: node.js just has the standard tcp, file, etc
[15:13] sergeb: socket.io is just event-based sockets? Nice.
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[15:14] tmedema: is http://npm.mape.me/ bugged? it says all projects were updated 1 day ago.
[15:14] robinduckett: yeah
[15:14] robinduckett: it's sick
[15:14] mape: tmedema: it is the mdate that is wonky
[15:14] mape: haven't touched it in weeks
[15:14] tmedema: mape: alright
[15:15] jvolkman-work: sergeb: arguably the best thing about node isn't javascript per se, but that it has an excited and active community. Could have been node.lua but that's not how things happened 
[15:15] mape: tmedema: Could be he fixed them though, so from now on it will be ok :)
[15:15] tmedema: kk
[15:16] sergeb: Oh shit
[15:16] sergeb: robinduckett: ';alert(String.fromCharCode(88,83,83))//\';alert(String.fromCharCode(88,83,83))//";alert(String.fromCharCode(88,83,83))//\";alert(String.fromCharCode(88,83,83))//--></SCRIPT>">'><SCRIPT>alert(String.fromCharCode(88,83,83))</SCRIPT>
[15:16] sergeb: This still works :D
[15:16] robinduckett: yeah
[15:17] robinduckett: try it now
[15:18] robinduckett: not working now?
[15:18] sergeb: Fixed.
[15:19] sergeb: Did you find a fix, or did you just block that string? :D
[15:19] robinduckett: no I just replaced all <> with &lt;&gt;
[15:19] robinduckett: I had forgot /g on the regex
[15:19] sergeb: That should fix ir.
[15:19] robinduckett: so it was only doing one
[15:19] sergeb: *it
[15:19] robinduckett: you're not from kentucky by any chance?
[15:19] sergeb: Me? Not really. :D
[15:19] sergeb: I'm win Warsaw, Poland.
[15:19] sergeb: im
[15:20] robinduckett: So you're not the guy who was fucking with me the other day? lol
[15:20] sergeb: But win is fine, too.
[15:20] sergeb: Not that I remember :P
[15:20] lianj: jvolkman-work: there is no wtflua.com, maybe in the end this choice had been better ;)
[15:20] robinduckett: haxors all over the place
[15:20] sergeb: Haha, I'm no haxxor :P
[15:20] sergeb: Just a bored coder.
[15:21] robinduckett: I +mates you on reddit
[15:21] sergeb: And vice-versa.
[15:22] robinduckett: hmm
[15:22] robinduckett: does markdown have any xss vulns?
[15:22] robinduckett: because I'm just using the standard markdown.js
[15:22] jvolkman-work: lianj: :)
[15:23] sergeb: I don't think so.
[15:23] _announcer: Twitter: "Creating safe and composable 'mixins' with traits.js - NodeJS: http://howtonode.org/traitsjs" -- Hernan Garcia. http://twitter.com/theprogrammer/status/2743116071178242
[15:23] sergeb: There was one on reddit a long time, but I don't remember which library they used.
[15:23] sergeb: I think they changed recently.
[15:23] sriley: robinduckett: you should be doing all special chars & < > ' "
[15:24] sergeb: Not really, <> and & are enough, provided the replacing is done recursively.
[15:24] robinduckett: why &?
[15:24] sergeb: Ah
[15:24] sriley: cos its invalid html to just have &
[15:24] sergeb: Right.
[15:24] robinduckett: ah
[15:24] sergeb: Just <> then :P. Unless you are obsessed by valid HTML :P
[15:25] sriley: no reason not to have valid html
[15:25] sergeb: Well, I guess.
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[15:25] sriley: lets me insert control chars if you dont encode them, eg i can change the direction of the text
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[15:25] robinduckett: ah
[15:26] robinduckett: but i like that
[15:26] robinduckett: it's a troll chat site
[15:26] robinduckett: it's going to be full of trolls like that
[15:26] robinduckett: as long as no one can execute any js i'm okay with anything
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[15:29] _announcer: Twitter: "Learning Javascript with Object Graphs #NodeJS http://bit.ly/9h5uIx" -- Farzad E.. http://twitter.com/dNetGuru/status/2744726985904128
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[15:31] robinduckett: well
[15:31] robinduckett: i have learnt a valuable lesson about xss today :D
[15:31] robinduckett: [](/lol)
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[15:33] Aikar: wat
[15:35] _announcer: Twitter: "@rhyaniwyn you really dunno about ss-js? clearly, you've omitted me from ur stream. nodejs.org  fronteers taking ova" -- jalbertbowdenii. http://twitter.com/jalbertbowdenii/status/2746281445294081
[15:37] sergeb: [](/troll)
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[15:46] _announcer: Twitter: "The framework of the many node.js tune the express http://expressjs.com/ simple, a lot of success stories." [zh-CN] -- 徐 楽楽. http://twitter.com/xu_lele/status/2749099350695936
[15:47] _announcer: Twitter: "@ryan_richt Oh lord, yeah.  Writing for node.js is a dream compared to dealing with NIO. #couchdb" -- Justin Shoffstall. http://twitter.com/jmshoffs0812/status/2749134868062209
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[15:48] _announcer: Twitter: "Tteka greatly faster than the V8 ... oh poor language? : Node.js http://t.co/O0ZLuD8" [ja] -- (`・ω・´)MIPS!. http://twitter.com/syuu1228/status/2749516050595840
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[15:56] tmedema: Hi folks, what webservers are most actively developed/used for node.js?
[15:56] ctp has joined the channel
[15:56] Ezku\_: servers? node.js pretty much is one, considering the http library.
[15:57] _announcer: Twitter: "Come and join the fun!  http://meetu.ps/4wpK #copenhagen #javascript #nodejs" -- Jacob Andresen. http://twitter.com/jacobandresen/status/2751677652271104
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[16:03] _announcer: Twitter: "Ne @ oza_x86 it. But for Web Workers like you are planning on HTML5, Node.js took the road itself is not bad I think." [ja] -- tama (Red Bull内定). http://twitter.com/repeatedly/status/2753294606794753
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[16:06] _announcer: Twitter: "I’ve started a new little project on github, jslint command line parsing js files using node.js http://ow.ly/38dtS #nodejs #jslint" -- ephigenia. http://twitter.com/ephigenia/status/2754151633133568
[16:06] _announcer: Twitter: "Playing around with #Vows by @cloudhead - http://vowsjs.org/ (behaviour driven development for #Node.js)" -- Nico Kaiser. http://twitter.com/nicokaiser/status/2754153365377024
[16:07] ThePub has joined the channel
[16:07] _announcer: Twitter: "It's libssl-dev u need on ubuntu to build #nodejs with ssl .. maybe thats docworthy." -- Sebastian Schürmann. http://twitter.com/sschuermann/status/2754254502629376
[16:08] _announcer: Twitter: "hmmmm... I keep dreaming that #node.js is also a good fit for batch processing..." -- jamescarr. http://twitter.com/jamescarr/status/2754432827654144
[16:08] _announcer: Twitter: "And I think the point node.js anxious in company strategy and future, JavaScript, so weak Well, if you do std.event sample application in writing of the clone would be great too." [ja] -- tama (Red Bull内定). http://twitter.com/repeatedly/status/2754512066449408
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[16:12] _announcer: Twitter: "Up an running with Node.js - Book Project http://yhoo.it/bMsR3b &lt;- get a free pdf preview" -- Hernan Garcia. http://twitter.com/theprogrammer/status/2755445361999872
[16:14] ThePub has joined the channel
[16:14] _announcer: Twitter: "we posted a video of touch tone tanks at http://twilly.no.de/ (our demo in front of 800 at nytm :) #node.js #socket.io #nytm" -- David Trejo. http://twitter.com/ddtrejo/status/2755978848112641
[16:14] jakehow has joined the channel
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[16:15] _announcer: Twitter: "@sschuermann uhm ... http://packages.ubuntu.com/source/maverick/nodejs take an educated guess what 'build-depends' is all about. ;-)" -- Stephan Hensel. http://twitter.com/sthensel/status/2756392423264257
[16:15] _announcer: Twitter: "While compiling and V8 node.js sleep." [ja] -- oza. http://twitter.com/oza_x86/status/2756423503052800
[16:16] _announcer: Twitter: "#nodejs slides from @tanepiper 's talk at Edinburgh meetup: http://is.gd/gWlao" -- Dallas Node. http://twitter.com/DallasNode/status/2756577786339328
[16:17] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js http://bit.ly/9XmL1r gets corporate support" [es] -- Federico Erostarbe. http://twitter.com/ferostar/status/2756736633020416
[16:22] _announcer: Twitter: "Apparently Joyent just bought Node.JS. Check the Google Group: http://bit.ly/9Ye4X3" -- Randall Bennett. http://twitter.com/randallb/status/2758032282886144
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[16:24] zemanel: what template engines are you using?
[16:26] _announcer: Twitter: "Tired, node.js is what was making the Joyent. In the street ..." [ja] -- oza. http://twitter.com/oza_x86/status/2759088022753280
[16:27] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js as to which registers an event handler that will become something like a Web Workers, and selfishness fork () or not Hey I would like runs. IO to be back so soon as you master process can focus on it." [ja] -- tama (Red Bull内定). http://twitter.com/repeatedly/status/2759260735799296
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[16:37] adambeynon: is there a solution for file globbing yet?
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[16:43] stride: adambeynon: to find a file based on a string with wildcards? rbranson has a nice trie based solution on his github account for that
[16:43] adambeynon: stride: thanks, il have a look there
[16:45] rbranson: :D I would just use regexp if you have a small set of patterns to match
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[16:52] mAritz: does someone here know backbone.js / underscore.js well? (can't find an official channel)
[16:52] gkatsev: underscore.js ftw
[16:53] gkatsev: I dont think underscore has a channel. Just ask here or in ##javascript.
[16:53] gkatsev: not sure about backbone.js
[16:53] mAritz: okayyy... this.__proto__.constructor.__super__ is really annoying to type/use. is there a better way?
[16:53] malkomalko_ has joined the channel
[16:53] gkatsev: not really. But you could write a function that did it for you, or something.
[16:54] mAritz: oh wait, i can leave out the __proto__, that helps already :D
[16:54] bradleymeck: .__super__?
[16:54] _announcer: Twitter: "@jamescarr I'm not sure batch processing is going to be the sweet spot for #node.js :)" -- aaronfreeman. http://twitter.com/aaronfreeman/status/2766184357298176
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[16:55] mAritz: bradleymeck: if you use underscore to extend, it will save the parent prototype in that. (something like that)
[16:56] mAritz: ianal, so no warranty!
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[16:57] gkatsev: iAnal. The new Apple iAnal is inserted once and lasts a lifetime. It is magical and will change your life.
[16:57] gkatsev: (sorry)
[16:57] bradleymeck: revolutionizing revolution again
[16:58] mAritz: HAH, fooled you. i am a lawyer and will sue you for slander now! EAT THAT!
[16:58] gkatsev: that's illegal.
[16:58] gkatsev: you set me up
[16:58] bradleymeck: what does _cheerios do? just another log bot?
[16:59] gkatsev: it gives us cheerios when we want some?
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[17:02] mAritz: nah, i've actually seen _cheerios talk
[17:03] mAritz: about 3 hours ago, actually.
[17:03] Aikar: !cheerios
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[17:03] Aikar: fail :(
[17:03] bradleymeck: anyone looking to hire someone?
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[17:07] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent bought Node.JS, good that Node.JS found a home" -- Shailesh. http://twitter.com/sxm20/status/2769376365252608
[17:08] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js finds new abode: Node.js, the V8 JavaScript tool for creating event driven, scalable network programs, h... http://bit.ly/bNNdaU" -- Robbert-Frank. http://twitter.com/RobbertFrank/status/2769747015901185
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[17:11] _announcer: Twitter: "node.js very good source code. fun." [ja] -- utatane. http://twitter.com/Constellation/status/2770489181216768
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[17:13] ryah_: i've been thinking recently - after hanging out with my friends from chrome - that c-ares might not be the best way to do DNS
[17:13] ryah_: it is really annoying that it doesn't go through nsswitch
[17:14] pquerna: thread it?
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[17:14] pquerna: having c-ares is nice if someone ever writes a web crawler in node, but it isn't great for little desktop apps or play things.
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[17:16] _announcer: Twitter: "ED's Tech Update: Node.js finds new abode http://bit.ly/aurWof #mac #tech #products" -- Leah Morrison. http://twitter.com/ElectronicsDiva/status/2771757433888768
[17:20] _announcer: Twitter: "Maestrosdelweb: Node.js: &quot;The attempt to write scalable network programs&quot; http://mdw.li/cX5eBs" [es] -- Maestros del Web. http://twitter.com/maestros/status/2772592431726592
[17:20] rbranson: gkatsev: #documentcloud for backbone.js
[17:20] mAritz: rbranson: cool, thanks :)
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[17:22] jashkenas: mAritz: gkatsev: yeah, you can ask about Underscore.js in #documentcloud.
[17:22] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: &quot;The attempt to write scalable network programs&quot; http://bit.ly/b7Ztzl (Via @ teachers)" [es] -- Notionline. http://twitter.com/Notion_Line/status/2773238421651456
[17:23] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: &quot;The attempt to write scalable network programs&quot; http://dlvr.it/8NlQG" [es] -- negocioclic. http://twitter.com/negocioclic/status/2773331409375232
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[17:24] mAritz: jashkenas: oh, you're a node.js'er too? didn't notice that. so node.js was a good place to ask :D
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[17:26] ryah_: yeah, i was thinking about going back to getaddrinfo and threads...
[17:27] ryah_: maybe pull c-ares out into a separate module
[17:27] ryah_: so that people who need really fast dns can use that
[17:27] ryah_: :(
[17:27] rbranson: probably for the best
[17:27] rbranson: if we're talking about serverzzz
[17:27] ryah_: it would also lighten node
[17:28] ryah_: which is good
[17:28] rbranson: less code = less bugs
[17:28] rbranson: less bugs = less blog posts on HN about how node.js sux da fat 1
[17:28] c4milo: agree completly 
[17:28] seanbo has joined the channel
[17:28] rbranson: because the most important thing in life is not being made fun of on the internets
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[17:30] _announcer: Twitter: "and node.js can't really be the new rails because it's lower level. rails was popular mostly because of ease of use. cc/ @mcoquet" -- Tiago Rodrigues. http://twitter.com/trodrigues/status/2775085152739328
[17:30] rbranson: wow, people are misinformed
[17:31] c4milo: puff
[17:31] seanbo: recommendation for irc client on osx?
[17:31] rbranson: I use xchat
[17:31] fangel: I use Colloquy
[17:32] rbranson: i like arcane looking IRC clients that remind me of ircII
[17:32] rbranson: and mIRC
[17:32] fangel: :)
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[17:32] _announcer: Twitter: "@trodrigues @mcoquet disagree. You can't compare apples againts oranges. Nodejs is a platform, RoR is a MVC framework." -- Camilo Aguilar. http://twitter.com/c4milo/status/2775762964848641
[17:33] rbranson: damn, got to it first
[17:33] rbranson: node.js is V8 + I/O
[17:33] c4milo: ;) 
[17:33] rbranson: you can't really make useful software without I/O, so it's sort of the minimum usable runtime for JavaScript outside of a browser
[17:34] _announcer: Twitter: "That, node.js libeio me I&#39;m using?" [ja] -- tama (Red Bull内定). http://twitter.com/repeatedly/status/2776147708354560
[17:34] robinduckett: jesus
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[17:37] seanbo: 
ACTION waves hello

[17:37] bradleymeck: yello
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[17:40] _announcer: Twitter: "@gregferrell afaik it can be anything that can be executed. Ruby, Python, Node.js, etc… Let me know if you get something wacky working!" -- Thomas Aylott. http://twitter.com/SubtleGradient/status/2777594151833600
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[17:44] _announcer: Twitter: "Hey @loggly, how about a private beta invite for @nodejitsu? I promise we will battle harden your systems with tons of #nodejs server logs" -- Charlie Robbins. http://twitter.com/indexzero/status/2778609781579778
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[17:45] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js gets official backing from Joyant http://bit.ly/bsK1Wb" -- Lenny Rachitsky. http://twitter.com/lennysan/status/2778883011117056
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[17:46] _announcer: Twitter: "maestrosdelweb Node.js: &quot;The attempt to write programs Scalable Networking&quot; is a project Node.js ... http://bit.ly/cjzGbW" [es] -- CustomersForever. http://twitter.com/cust_forever/status/2779121377607680
[17:46] seanbo has joined the channel
[17:46] malkomalko: is there any good way with express/connect to filter out certain things in your log? I have monit up but it's cluttering my log file with http requests
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[17:49] _announcer: Twitter: "The easiest way to start #NodeJS daemon-like in the background is the simple "nohup" command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nohup" -- Falco. http://twitter.com/ulmerleben/status/2779874863349760
[17:49] saschagehlich: hey, I've got socket.io working in IE8 with xhr-polling... but it only sends the first request I want it to send to the server, all the other ones after the first request are not transported to the server. in chrome it works fine. did anyone ever experience sth like that?
[17:49] davidsklar has joined the channel
[17:50] bradleymeck: is this the 1.6.1 socket.io?
[17:51] bradleymeck: 0.6.1*
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[17:53] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: &quot;The attempt to write scalable network programs&quot; Node.js is a project developed by the program ... http://bit.ly/9INJSa" [es] -- Aprendemasonline. http://twitter.com/aprendem/status/2780993098350592
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[17:55] TomsB: I have flashsocket app. User can connect to server, receive messages, but can't send them (it's sending them, but server never receives). Is this the right IRC where to ask this?
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[17:55] _announcer: Twitter: "Who know about Node.js? http://mdw.li/cX5eBs what advantages and disadvantages you see?" [es] -- Stephanie Falla. http://twitter.com/stephaniefalla/status/2781468321382401
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[17:56] saschagehlich: bradleymeck: I think so, the latest commit
[17:56] saschagehlich: but I had the same problem with 0.6
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[18:00] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js and Websockets: Match made in Heaven #codebits #stageA" -- João Xavier. http://twitter.com/CristoPT/status/2782628948221952
[18:01] bradleymeck: v8: function foo(){};function bar(){};bar.prototype = new foo();x = new bar;[x,x.__proto__==bar.prototype,x.constructor]
[18:01] v8bot: bradleymeck: [{}, true, function foo(){}]
[18:01] bradleymeck: can someone explain why .constructor is foo in that example?
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[18:07] malkomalko: anybody use fugue with express here? can't figure out the proper way to do logging without littering it with all the PING/PONG business that fugue sends out
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[18:09] jashkenas: bradleymeck: because when you set bar's prototype, it kills the constructor reference.
[18:10] jashkenas: That's why all "inherits" or "extends" methods set back the prototype to the proper function.
[18:10] jashkenas: *set back the constructor
[18:10] bradleymeck: i see, thats rather nasty
[18:11] jashkenas: quite. 
[18:12] jashkenas: child.prototype = new parent(); child.prototype.constructor = child;
[18:12] bradleymeck: might be the only reason to have me use a wrapper for extending things
[18:12] aurynn: Javascript: Only mildly warty.
[18:12] micheil: hmm, what's the state of 0mq and similar modules?
[18:13] jashkenas: bradleymeck: the other reason to use a wrapper being so that you don't accidentally execute the parent's constructor, while inheriting.
[18:13] bradleymeck: from what I hear one of them is usable but only on master and not the most stable
[18:13] aurynn: Do you not want to run the parent's constructor?
[18:13] jashkenas: You do, when you construct a new child().
[18:13] bradleymeck: jashkenas, I once purposefully did that, forget why
[18:13] jashkenas: Not when you're setting up the prototype chain.
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[18:14] aurynn: so does the .prototype = new parent(); run the parent constructor? Or not?
[18:14] dguttman has joined the channel
[18:14] bradleymeck: it does
[18:15] jashkenas: aurynn: it does, which is why the functions also tend to swap it out...
[18:15] jashkenas: var ctor = function(){}; ctor.prototype = parent.prototype; child.prototype = new ctor(); child.prototype.constructor = child;     ... that's the whole three-step tango.
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[18:16] aurynn: Got it.
[18:16] _announcer: Twitter: "#nodeJS simple Web Service http://wp.me/p101tL-2qX" -- jaydson. http://twitter.com/jaydson/status/2786844248899584
[18:16] aurynn: (also, that's kind of crazy)
[18:17] aurynn: and then in child.prototype.constructor, you use parent.call(this) to run the parent constructor? Or is there something else I don't know ? :)
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[18:17] _announcer: Twitter: "&quot;Node.js - The Deep Dive Presentation slides at http://is.gd/gWy2L # codebits2010" [gl] -- Pedro Teixeira. http://twitter.com/pedrogteixeira/status/2787098411143168
[18:18] jashkenas: aurynn: precisely.
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[18:18] _announcer: Twitter: "sudo brew install node #nodejs" -- Chilian C.. http://twitter.com/keysee/status/2787202199199744
[18:18] aurynn: Got it.
[18:18] jashkenas: And the other optional step in that little dance is to set a reference to the parent, or the parent's prototpye.
[18:18] jashkenas: So that you can call super() without having to know the name of the particular parent class.
[18:18] _announcer: Twitter: "I'm co-hosting the next Oresund js meetup with @kaptencybear on server-side js with node. We now have some places left http://j.mp/cW5zYv" -- Ian Jørgensen. http://twitter.com/ianjorgensen/status/2787310177353730
[18:18] jashkenas: ... or using __proto__.
[18:18] creationix: __proto__ ftw
[18:18] creationix: ;)
[18:19] sclaflin: __proto__ powa +1
[18:19] _announcer: Twitter: "@jonromero on real time updates with ruby and node.js #athens #ruby #meetup http://yfrog.com/n1y8juj" -- Leonidas Tsementzis. http://twitter.com/goldstein/status/2787436329443329
[18:19] jashkenas: __proto__ needs to lose it's underscores and be a real thing.
[18:19] creationix: though if you're just reading it, getPrototypeOf is just fine
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[18:20] aurynn: This is an unpleasant little song and dance.
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[18:22] sclaflin: underneath it all, it's pretty nice
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[18:23] msh210: Hi, all. Question: In attempting to install node I ran configure but was told "wscript:132: error: could not configure a cxx compiler!". Does that mean I need to download C now also??
[18:23] mape: msh210: A compiler for c++
[18:23] msh210: yeah, that's what I meant. I do?
[18:24] justin_:  msh210: if you're on ubuntu, "apt-get install g++"
[18:24] mape: Yeah, otherwise it will be hard to compile
[18:24] msh210: I am. Okay, thanks.
[18:24] jashkenas: aurynn: it's a pretty unbelievable one, considering that it's the only way robustly to use prototypes in pre-ECMA5...
[18:24] msh210: justin_ - sudo I assume, no?
[18:24] justin_: yeah
[18:24] aurynn: Wow.
[18:24] msh210: k thx....
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[18:25] _announcer: Twitter: "Oh how I love all your #nodejs setup hints that tell me I am a #douchebag. Bitch around a little less? NOT. thanks fellas" -- Sebastian Schürmann. http://twitter.com/sschuermann/status/2789063971053569
[18:26] mape: Huh?
[18:26] sclaflin: O_o
[18:26] msh210: "wscript:188: error: Could not autodetect OpenSSL support." --- is this crucial, or should i install node without?
[18:27] mape: msh210: you want to fetch it
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[18:27] msh210: argh
[18:27] sclaflin: apt-get install libssl-dev (I think)
[18:27] mape: yeah
[18:28] msh210: even though i'm only using this for local uses?
[18:28] msh210: (sorry, total newbie here (as you can tell))
[18:29] _announcer: Twitter: "anyone know of any free NodeJs hosting?" -- Lewis Barclay. http://twitter.com/errumm/status/2790037645168640
[18:29] _announcer: Twitter: "Looking forward to #eveningof Node.JS tonight." -- Marc Grabanski. http://twitter.com/1Marc/status/2790112320552961
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[18:30] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js, the V8 JavaScript tool for creating event driven,scalable network programs, has found a new home with cloud hosting company Joyent." -- answerguy. http://twitter.com/answerguy/status/2790307708010496
[18:30] justin_: msh210: yup, no real great packages yet
[18:30] justin_: node's changing fast
[18:31] justin_: they exist in the debian repositories, but just compiling it yourself is the easiest way to make sure you're up to date
[18:31] msh210: 
ACTION doesn't know Greek.

[18:32] justin_: msh210: haha, sorry --- node's too cool for school, is basically what i'm trying to say ;)
[18:32] richcollins: How do you get the address of an object?
[18:32] richcollins: or some other unique id
[18:32] rbranson: 123 object st?
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[18:32] mape: rbranson: address? The keys?
[18:33] rbranson: there's no intrinsic unique id
[18:33] _announcer: Twitter: "building #nodejs on my mac... should be fun to write some server-side #javascript" -- Mogens Heller Grabe. http://twitter.com/mookid8000/status/2790992214228992
[18:33] rbranson: you can pretty easily create one though
[18:33] richcollins: rbranson: How about the address?
[18:33] richcollins: some hex value
[18:33] rbranson: same deal
[18:34] rbranson: what are you trying to do? uniquely identify objects?
[18:34] richcollins: that makes debugging a bit more challenging :-(
[18:34] richcollins: yes
[18:34] richcollins: I want to print an object at two different places and see if it is the same
[18:34] mape: keep it in an object and assign an unique key?
[18:34] _announcer: Twitter: "http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/956a3431b1d9e937 Node.js becomes a Joyent product." -- Ryszard Szopa. http://twitter.com/szopa/status/2791383718957056
[18:34] rbranson: ====
[18:34] rbranson: er
[18:34] rbranson: ===
[18:34] rbranson: OR
[18:35] rbranson: you can do something fancy like
[18:35] rbranson: Object.counter = 0;
[18:35] richcollins: there are plenty of ways to do it, but printing the object's unique id is the easiest
[18:35] rbranson: Object.prototype.uniqueId = function() { if (!this.__id__) this.__id__ = Object.counter++; return this.__id__; }
[18:36] rbranson: v8: Object.counter = 0; Object.prototype.uniqueId = function() { if (!this.__id__) this.__id__ = Object.counter++; return this.__id__; }; [].uniqueId();
[18:36] v8bot: rbranson: 0
[18:36] rbranson: v8: Object.counter = 0; Object.prototype.uniqueId = function() { if (!this.__id__) this.__id__ = Object.counter++; return this.__id__; }; [].uniqueId(); [].uniqueId();
[18:36] v8bot: rbranson: 1
[18:36] rbranson: etc
[18:37] richcollins: yep
[18:37] richcollins: Although I don't like adding things to Object.prototype because it breaks poorly written libraries that enumerate without checking hasOwnProperty
[18:38] rbranson: i would assume this is for debugging only
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[18:40] Aikar: richcollins: someone taught me something neat the other day about that. if you use Object.defineProperty(Object.prototype, 'uniqueId', { value: function() { } });, that will make it not come up in enumeration
[18:41] Aikar: the 3rd arg has an enumerable property which defaults false
[18:41] richcollins: ah that should help -- thanks
[18:42] Aikar: of course that would realistically only work in node since only v8 supports .defineProperty, leaving other browsers out of luck on it
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[18:43] gkatsev: jashkenas: rbranson: cool, thanks :)
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[18:44] _announcer: Twitter: "I couldn't resist. glob-trie.js for nodeJS now has remove(). It's "finished" and now I can move on to "real work." http://bit.ly/9psZIW" -- Rick. http://twitter.com/rbranson/status/2793902532722688
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[18:47] creationix: jashkenas: I find it very interesting how often coffeescript is brought up in the es-discuss mailing list
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[18:49] msh210: kthx guys, hand
[18:49] italic: Aikar: Object.defineProperty is a part of ES5
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[18:58] _announcer: Twitter: "@jasonmulligan no kidding, me too!  you can play a lot of that in NodeJS, V8 has much of ES5 implemented." -- Marc Harter. http://twitter.com/wavded/status/2797421042077696
[18:59] _announcer: Twitter: "JJinuxLand: JavaScript: A Second Impression of NodeJS - JavaScript: A Second Impression of NodeJS When I first heard... http://ow.ly/19Vkwt" -- Javascript News. http://twitter.com/del_javascript/status/2797476679520256
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[18:59] _announcer: Twitter: "@wavded excellent, i need some time to wrap my head around nodejs, been busy making my lib hateoas friendly" -- Jason Mulligan. http://twitter.com/jasonmulligan/status/2797647014404096
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[19:01] _announcer: Twitter: "A gre / nerd analogy for all of you. Twitter support : phone support what node.js : apache. Non-blocking tech support ftw!" -- Randall Bennett. http://twitter.com/randallb/status/2797991173820416
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[19:01] rbranson: heh
[19:02] _announcer: Twitter: "@ Choco liver na na na .. # # V8 and are already nodeJs burner ..." [de] -- Oliver Kuhn. http://twitter.com/thisisole/status/2798221680185344
[19:04] creationix: anyone here ever tried to simulate multiple "processes" inside a single node process
[19:05] c4milo: creationix: using the threadpool ? 
[19:05] creationix: have modules execute in their own context with their own event loop
[19:05] creationix: c4milo: no, all in a single thread
[19:05] c4milo: oh, nope
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[19:05] creationix: I guess you'd have to share the event loop if there are no threads huh?
[19:06] rbranson: creationix: like a completely sandboxed VM?
[19:06] creationix: I'm not so much worried about sandbox for security
[19:06] creationix: but more robustness
[19:06] rbranson: yeah, not like security, but isolated
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[19:06] rbranson: like you aren't sharing data between the "processes"
[19:06] _announcer: Twitter: "Quite excited about what I learnt about web sockets and nodejs today. Doesn't make up for not being at #fullfrontal tomorrow good luck @rem" -- Lewis Barclay. http://twitter.com/errumm/status/2799386631344128
[19:06] rbranson: you'd have to use some kind of message passing for that
[19:06] creationix: correct, they would normally be seperate processes
[19:07] creationix: but I want it all in a single process
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[19:07] rbranson: if they're that isolated, why not just run seperate processes?
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[19:07] rbranson: a crash in any one of the VM contexts will bring the whole thing down
[19:08] creationix: rbranson: yeah, I would want an uncaught exception event for each context
[19:08] creationix: so only that context would crash
[19:08] rbranson: what about native extensions?
[19:08] rbranson: you can catch SIGSEGV, but it's not a good idea
[19:09] _announcer: Twitter: "Update the #nodejs user-agent parser to also parse out the OS. It's now also installable through npm: npm install useragent" -- Arnout Kazemier. http://twitter.com/3rdEden/status/2800005849022464
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[19:09] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js: Attempting to write programs http://www.blodico.com/12895023639 scalable network" [es] -- Blodico. http://twitter.com/blodico/status/2800211403476992
[19:10] _announcer: Twitter: "Just found Node.js and I guess I love it. Instead of learning ruby to use rails I'll play around with Geddy and other Frameworks. I love js!" -- Alexander Prinzhorn. http://twitter.com/Prinzhorn/status/2800325018779648
[19:10] _announcer: Twitter: "aaaand I am now inserting documents in #mongodb from tiny #express app on #nodejs ... THAT was easy!" -- Mogens Heller Grabe. http://twitter.com/mookid8000/status/2800402017812480
[19:11] rbranson: whilst doing pair programmed BDD on a Mac at a standing desk
[19:11] rbranson: in Portland
[19:12] creationix: heh, we have standing desks here if people want them
[19:13] mjr_: heh, Portland was a nice touch.
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[19:17] mjr_: creationix: what podcast did you do last night?
[19:18] _announcer: Twitter: "discussion on node.js and joyent is still going on. kinda interesting from an oss copyright view." -- Yuji Yamano. http://twitter.com/yyamano/status/2802248270745600
[19:18] SubStack: not really very interesting actually
[19:18] SubStack: under MIT/X11 isn't doesn't matter very much
[19:19] _announcer: Twitter: "I just gave 4 stars to Node.js, a Meetup for Mountain View JavaScript Meetup Group http://meetu.ps/m9L" -- Francesco Sullo. http://twitter.com/sullof/status/2802639666413569
[19:20] rbranson: seems like a lot of talking for nothing
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[19:20] rbranson: MIT = do whatever the F you want thx
[19:20] _announcer: Twitter: "First resonance in the Google Group node.js node to topic-usb win is very good :-) #" [de] -- Schakko. http://twitter.com/schakko/status/2802880952139776
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[19:22] kgf: rbranson: I thought that was the WTFPL
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[19:22] italic: it's inda bad timing though with the whole oracle/java debacle
[19:23] rbranson: kgf: WTFPL doesn't explicitly say NO WARRANTIES BITCH
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[19:25] kgf: hm. so I guess we need a bidirectional WTFPL? like, WTFPL plus soviet russia WTFPL where the code does whatever it wants with you
[19:25] kgf: I suppose that's a little more actively-malicious-sounding than "no warranties bitch"
[19:26] rbranson: haha, well, licenses are a bitch. just ask doug crockford about his "no evil" license.
[19:29] _announcer: Twitter: "i really enjoy playing with node.js and doing more javascript, just not really finding a real use for it. yet... lots of potential though" -- Ari Turetzky. http://twitter.com/AriT93/status/2805045854736384
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[19:37] jashkenas: creationix: re: es5-discuss ... you have a link in particular? I don't think that the "search" works for that list.
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[19:40] micheil: jashkenas: perhaps: https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es5-discuss
[19:40] micheil: oh, right,.
[19:41] jashkenas: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es5-discuss/ ... search doesn't seem to work.
[19:41] jashkenas: Internal Server Error.
[19:42] micheil: hmm..
[19:42] jameshome_ has joined the channel
[19:42] _announcer: Twitter: "#codebits2010 FInished my talk on Node.js and Websockets, if you guys have any questions, I will be around for the all 3 days. Thanks." -- Andre Goncalves. http://twitter.com/andregoncalves/status/2808495950798848
[19:43] micheil: jashkenas: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.javascript.ecmascript4.general
[19:43] micheil: perhaps?
[19:43] pedrobelo has joined the channel
[19:44] JimBastard has joined the channel
[19:44] JimBastard: so it turns out i wasn't hallucinating https://gist.github.com/c60719177cfe166b8f18
[19:44] JimBastard: awesome
[19:44] JimBastard: isaacs: 
[19:44] jtsnow has joined the channel
[19:44] JimBastard: :p
[19:44] rbranson: hot
[19:45] rbranson: it's ok guys, gem uses like 200MB of RAM to do whatever it does
[19:45] jashkenas: npm install *.*
[19:45] rbranson: npm supports wildcards?
[19:45] JimBastard: indexzero might have some insight as to why that dun happened
[19:45] JimBastard: he's been implementing programitcal npm functionality
[19:45] JimBastard: var npm = require('npm');
[19:46] JimBastard: but it happend on our balancer of all places, not the places we spawn stuff...wiiiierddd
[19:46] jesusabdullah: Gem? Like, the ruby thing?
[19:46] rbranson: yeah, the ruby thing
[19:46] mikeal: creationix: can i confirm you for oak.js?
[19:46] JimBastard: mikeal: is that tonight?
[19:46] bnoordhuis has joined the channel
[19:46] mikeal: no, it's the 22nd
[19:47] JimBastard: IM SO THERE
[19:47] JimBastard: JAVASCRIPT PARTY
[19:47] jesusabdullah: How often does oak.js go down?
[19:47] mikeal: haha
[19:47] jesusabdullah: Monthly?
[19:47] mikeal: i'm trying to do them every month
[19:47] SubStack: oh shit, party?
[19:47] _announcer: Twitter: "/r/n. Was all I was missing. That's all!!! #omfg #newb.... #node.js #memcached ..... （−＿−；）" -- Jose Burgos Jr.. http://twitter.com/joseburgosjr/status/2809680929759232
[19:47] JimBastard: i can do a lighting talk about javascript
[19:47] jesusabdullah: I'll be in Oak from Dec. 12th to ~ Dec. 18
[19:47] JimBastard: and nodejitsu
[19:47] _announcer: Twitter: "Some people actually *love* javascript?  Maybe I'll change my mind after learning more about node.js" -- Jeff Sparkes. http://twitter.com/jeff_sparkes/status/2809758394355712
[19:47] jesusabdullah: >:D
[19:48] jesusabdullah: Oh shit, I gotta talk to Geoff upstairs about my travel
[19:48] jesusabdullah: Because the U is paying for it, there's all this hassle about the fact that there aren't any flights after 5:00 on the 17th
[19:48] jesusabdullah: 
ACTION rolls his eyes.

[19:48] JimBastard: !tweet @jeff_sparkes i only tweet through irc using our node.js irc bot, node.js o-auth and node.js twitter api.
[19:49] JimBastard: is frankie down!
[19:49] JimBastard: damn
[19:49] rbranson: hahaha
[19:49] JimBastard: i gotta bring him back
[19:49] rbranson: story of node.js's life
[19:49] JimBastard: rbranson: more like we took that cluster down lol
[19:50] JimBastard: broodmother restarts apps that fail
[19:50] JimBastard: >.<
[19:50] sanduz2 has joined the channel
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[19:52] _announcer: Twitter: "Watching a demo of cloud9 editor in action for node.js - clue: It's pretty good #asyncjs" -- Michael Brunton-Spal. http://twitter.com/bruntonspall/status/2810872808349696
[19:53] davidascher has joined the channel
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[19:54] _announcer: Twitter: "Anyone planning on going to bar camp Manchester 4? I may do and talk about #nodejs maybe" -- Ciaran Jessup. http://twitter.com/ciaran_j/status/2811409868001280
[19:54] MikhX has joined the channel
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[19:57] micheil: JimBastard: wouldn't it be wise to have broodmother automatically redistribute the apps that are on decommissioned clusters?
[20:02] evanmeagher_ has joined the channel
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[20:04] JimBastard: micheil: i see what you did there.
[20:04] JimBastard: a sentence, with words
[20:04] micheil: yeah, they tend to be good.
[20:05] halfhalo_: double points for that!
[20:05] micheil: JimBastard: in fact, you should get to know them, they might be handy.
[20:08] sudoer has joined the channel
[20:08] _announcer: Twitter: "aaand now I finally got my #nodejs #express app to render me some #haml ... this is actually pretty nifty" -- Mogens Heller Grabe. http://twitter.com/mookid8000/status/2814943363600384
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[20:20] _announcer: Twitter: "Next Meetup Nov. 24 with node.js, cloud9ide and embed.js. Free beer and pizza plz sign up on http://bit.ly/9WwXaj" -- MunichJS. http://twitter.com/munichjs/status/2818037069647872
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[20:22] _announcer: Twitter: "Wow 10 minutes go fast! Speaking really really really quickly at @asyncjs pimping #ndistro for #nodejs" -- Phil Hawksworth. http://twitter.com/philhawksworth/status/2818389827395584
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[20:23] _announcer: Twitter: ":D! I got the @palm Facebook Quiz right: Connor LaCombe JavaScript, HTML, CSS, NODE.JS -Palm Nice going, Connor! Impressive turnaround time!" -- Connor LaCombe. http://twitter.com/connorlacombe/status/2818606190563329
[20:23] Me1000 has joined the channel
[20:26] mjr_: mikeal: next oak.js is 11/22?
[20:26] mikeal: yes
[20:27] pkrumins has joined the channel
[20:27] mjr_: Shit, I'm going to miss this one too.
[20:27] pkrumins: nov 22nd!
[20:27] SubStack: pkrumins: HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT
[20:27] SubStack: :p
[20:27] pkrumins: i have my sources
[20:27] mjr_: I'm going to be in Indiana, visiting family.
[20:27] mjr_: The non-JavaScript side of the family.
[20:28] pkrumins: i am totally gonna be there.
[20:30] _mql: Hey! Just in case someone is interested… We're heavily working on a browser-based document authoring engine. http://github.com/michael/substance   and today we've put a very first demo page online.
[20:30] maushu has joined the channel
[20:31] maushu: Hey guys.
[20:31] pkrumins: sup maushu 
[20:32] maushu: Wondering if it's possible to move the state from a node.js app to another.
[20:32] SubStack: _mql: this is what I do: http://substack.net/images/a_browser_in_your_browser.png 
[20:32] SubStack: >_>
[20:32] _mql: It may be used for creating and maintaining any kind of online publication..  e.g. stories/articles, software documentation, manuals.. 
[20:32] _mql: SubStack: :P
[20:33] frodenius: maushu: what 'state'?
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[20:33] SubStack: frodenius: state as in state machines
[20:33] maushu: You know... variables, stack, etc.
[20:33] _announcer: Twitter: "During the hour written feysbukeru replacement for node js. The new facebook API (oauth 2.0) - easier to nowhere." [ru] -- Anatoliy C.. http://twitter.com/1602/status/2821240452546560
[20:33] pkrumins: _mql: i went one step further, put a browser in a browser in a browser, ... http://imgur.com/YF5O3.png
[20:33] frodenius: so basically, virtual machine migrate?
[20:33] SubStack: maushu: rpc it!
[20:34] stride: _mql: heh, sweet, love that editing style
[20:34] pkrumins: _mql: we're having this competition with SubStack of who's gonna put more browsers in browsers
[20:34] micheil: _mql: this looks interesting
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[20:34] SubStack: does look pretty snazzy
[20:34] maushu: pkrumins, what kind of madness is this.
[20:34] ncursestest: hello from osx!
[20:35] micheil: _mql: how big a library is it?
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[20:35] maushu: SubStack, wat. RPC it? Can't compute.
[20:35] _announcer: Twitter: "Joyent & Node.js http://bit.ly/aZEqaG" -- yescomputers. http://twitter.com/yescomputers/status/2821731160956928
[20:35] maushu: Btw, what is this PubSub madness?
[20:36] maushu: In my time this was called events.
[20:36] _mql: ya well. it's super-buggy… but we're working on it ;)   It's basically based on the idea of describing documents as a hierarchy of content-nodes (section, text, image, etc.), which can be serialized and stored as JSON (e.g. using CouchDB).
[20:36] SubStack: maushu: with respect to moving state around, you can just pass references to continuations
[20:36] SubStack: with dnode of course!
[20:37] maushu: ...
[20:37] maushu: What if I don't control the code?
[20:37] _announcer: Twitter: "@ls_n @tivac @yaypie I would be really nice to allow YUI to load modules synchronously under node.js. Useful when using YUI inside a module." -- Bart Teeuwisse. http://twitter.com/bartt/status/2822183181090816
[20:37] maushu: Uncontrollable code.
[20:37] ncursestest: exit stage left
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[20:37] SubStack: not sure what you're getting at
[20:39] maushu: Well, lets say that I want to save the state of announcer without changing it's code. It contains the last 100 tweets in memory to prevent spam. I want to copy the state, stop the script and then run another script with the same state. (Disregard socket connections.)
[20:39] micheil: _mql: with Substance, does it persist to disk or datastore?
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[20:41] rbranson: we need an mnesia
[20:41] _mql: micheil: the internal in-memory representation of the doc is serialized to json… which is then  persistent to CouchDB...
[20:41] micheil: okay, cool
[20:41] micheil: _mql: so, could it be used for something like multipage documentation or similar
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[20:42] _announcer: Twitter: "@bartt @tivac @yaypie I'm not sympathetic to requests for synchronous apis in Node.js. Perhaps because I don't have a lot of hands on." -- Luke Smith. http://twitter.com/ls_n/status/2823609240264704
[20:43] maushu: Sync? In my node.js?!
[20:43] maushu: Over my cold dead body.
[20:43] jashkenas: _mql: is this a business or a school project, or just for fun?
[20:44] _announcer: Twitter: "@ls_n Node.js uses a sync API for requiring modules, so having a synchronous YUI().use() might make sense in this context." -- Ryan Grove. http://twitter.com/yaypie/status/2823925348171776
[20:44] _mql: micheil: Well, the basic idea was to create single-page documents, even if they're larger.. ;) There will be a viewer that helps you to navigate through larger docs
[20:44] micheil: _mql: okay, cool
[20:44] _announcer: Twitter: "Happy bit-hustle with JavaScript #node.js #node-usb" -- Schakko. http://twitter.com/schakko/status/2824116193206273
[20:44] micheil: jashkenas: actually reminds me of some of the stuff document cloud is doing
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[20:45] jashkenas: yeah, _mql and I have talked about it a bit before -- he's got interesting ideas about data-structures for documents...
[20:45] micheil: jashkenas: yeah, my interest in it is the documentation projects I work on.. 
[20:45] _mql: jashkenas: mhh.. the idea for this is already some months old… however I'm now working on various smaller projects that need content integration.. that's why i started this.. 
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[20:46] jashkenas: micheil: the documentation projects... ?
[20:46] micheil: jashkenas: for the various opensource projects I help out on
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[20:47] _mql: jashkenas: at some point…  this could actually help journalists to author stories, after they've done research on DC. ;)
[20:47] kjeldahl has joined the channel
[20:48] micheil: jashkenas: I dunno about you, but that sounds like _mql is asking for a job.. :P
[20:48] rbranson: awkward
[20:48] jashkenas: _mql: that's a nice pipe-dream. It's all still MS Office for the foreseeable future.
[20:48] _mql: hehe.. :P no, we already had this discussion
[20:48] jashkenas: yeah, we've already talked.
[20:49] micheil: haha, okay :)
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[20:49] micheil: rbranson: how so? :P
[20:49] rbranson: MS Office is probably the largest single destroyer of pipe dreams
[20:49] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js finds new abode - The H Open Source - http://bit.ly/912VTO" -- Buroteq. http://twitter.com/buroteq/status/2825324517654528
[20:49] frodenius: _mql: if i try to move the image in the demo, my browser offers me to save it... oO
[20:50] jashkenas: _mql: visualizations are still off in the future ... today is document manipulation: http://cl.ly/0R0x0H1H212A2z2v3n22
[20:50] _announcer: Twitter: "Also, "Node.js and WebSockets" by @andregoncalves was a nice overview on Node.js with practical examples. #codebits #codebits2010" -- José Ribeiro. http://twitter.com/jlbribeiro/status/2825559084105728
[20:50] micheil: jashkenas: now I can see why you're working on backbone
[20:51] _mql: frodenius:  yeah we'll, sure :P
[20:51] frodenius: shouldn't it move the image to the other section?
[20:51] _mql: jashkenas: can't open the image :/
[20:52] jashkenas: how about this link? http://cl.ly/3DLa
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[20:52] frodenius: (especially because it says, 'drop here')
[20:52] jashkenas has joined the channel
[20:52] _mql: this works
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[20:54] bnoordhuis: micheil: questionable honour, you were the chattiest person in this channel last month
[20:54] bnoordhuis: the top 10
[20:54] micheil: bnoordhuis: what?
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    6413 micheil
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    3015 Tim_Smart
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    3015 isaacs
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    2409 Anti-X
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    2198 creationix
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    1800 JimBastard
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    1739 chapel
[20:54] _mql: jashkenas: interesting… so we're both working on document authoring.. in some way ,)
[20:54] pedrobelo has joined the channel
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    1668 tjholowaychuk
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    1449 ryah
[20:54] bnoordhuis:    1395 TheEmpath
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[20:54] micheil: bnoordhuis: where's this information from?
[20:54] bnoordhuis: the chat logs
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[20:54] micheil: haha, okay
[20:55] bnoordhuis: you've got to try harder for this month though
[20:55] rbranson: this clearly needs to be a real-time web application written in node.js
[20:55] bnoordhuis: ajsie is in the lead for now
[20:55] _announcer: Twitter: "So, supposedly I was the chattiest person in #node.js by something like 3400 messages." -- Micheil Smith. http://twitter.com/miksago/status/2826776325660674
[20:55] bnoordhuis: rbranson: i agree, want to do it? :)
[20:55] rbranson: nope :)
[20:55] jashkenas: You can start with http://irclogger.com/...
[20:56] bnoordhuis: me neither, it's a perl one-liner
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[20:56] bnoordhuis: probably at least 20 lines of js
[20:56] _mql: jashkenas: but i guess it's more about combining scanned pages to one document?
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[20:57] tempas: Is Basic and Digest auth deprecated in favor of Oauth?
[20:57] dylang has joined the channel
[20:57] tempas: or should I still implement basic/digest for customers?
[20:57] tempas: thoughts?
[20:57] micheil: tempas: for twitter, yes
[20:57] micheil: tempas: out of context, I'm not sure.
[20:57] _announcer: Twitter: "Here is some ascii entertainment from @jayzes telnet ascii.factorylabs.com 5000 node.js server source: http://bit.ly/9uXEC4 #rubyconf" -- Gabe Varela. http://twitter.com/g3ak/status/2827300831760384
[20:57] tempas: micheil: why don't others implement oauth
[20:57] tempas: isnt it the fututre
[20:57] micheil: facebook does oauth, iirc
[20:57] micheil: same with a bunch of others
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[20:58] rbranson: oauth is just harder to implement than HTTP auth, so people don't do it
[20:59] jashkenas: _mql: inserting, replacing, reordering, removing, and editing pages.
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[21:00] _mql: jashkenas: seen.. and then the doc gets index and annotated?
[21:00] jashkenas: right, and passed through entity extraction again, etc.
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[21:02] maushu: And rbranson hit right on the spot.
[21:02] _mql: jashkenas:  is OpenCalais integration complicated…or just a matter of sending a text-fragment, getting the extracted entities back?
[21:02] maushu: Laziness > OAuth.
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[21:03] jashkenas: you just send the text, and they send you back RDF or JSON.
[21:04] jashkenas: The only problems are that it's inaccurate and slow. It's easy to integrate with otherwise.
[21:04] _mql: jashkenas: thinking about annotating substance-documents.. which i could use to implemented some kind of faceted browsing / filteriing etc.
[21:05] jashkenas: speaking of facets, take a look at the new version of Google Refine -- it's got some really interesting tools for editing and clustering facets.
[21:05] jashkenas: Some of which I think we'll try to steal...
[21:05] _mql: cool… i'll give it a try at some point ,)
[21:06] _mql: cool.. yeah.. I'm alreay using this former Freebase-Gridworks thing :)
[21:06] mikeal has joined the channel
[21:06] _mql: but hadn't had a look at version 2.0, which just got released..
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[21:11] _mql: jashkenas: and regarding visualizations for DC, just let me know when you need something.. at the moment I'm busy with writing my diplomathesis anyway… 
[21:13] jashkenas: will do.
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[21:14] _announcer: Twitter: "@jasonadriaan No. Something else for a change. Node.js. So basically lots of javascript." -- Simon de la Rouviere. http://twitter.com/shotbeak/status/2831673280438272
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[21:17] _announcer: Twitter: "Sometimes it's really nice just catching up with friends and geeking the hell out :) Subjects: ORMs, ZF 2, Obj-C, node.js, fucking callbacks" -- Simon Plenderleith. http://twitter.com/allidid/status/2832244846632960
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[21:19] _announcer: Twitter: "On which note, I am *dying* to do some stuff with node.js at the moment. All excuses welcome!" -- Simon Plenderleith. http://twitter.com/allidid/status/2832732660965376
[21:19] _announcer: Twitter: "@parkan node.js on rails with a python module should fix that issue #web4.0ftw" -- Seb Bean. http://twitter.com/sebbean/status/2832800709345280
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[21:20] rbranson: 4.0, lulz
[21:21] kr1shnan: Is it possible to log users directly into a node chat room by specifying their choice of nick, say in the URL they use to navigate to the chat room...
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[21:23] fangel_: sure.. anything's possible :)
[21:23] micheil: kr1shnan: if you write the code to do it.
[21:24] fangel: dirty dirty _.. pfft..
[21:24] kr1shnan: sure...just asking for pointers...wondering whether it can be done without writing any code...
[21:25] kr1shnan: for example, just passing the nick as URL parameters ...
[21:25] kr1shnan: since the chat login page is just a form that submits the nick as one of the fields...
[21:25] kr1shnan: i tried a few things in this direction
[21:25] fangel: everything takes code.. so what you ask if that if anyone else has already written code that will do it for you? :P
[21:26] _mql: jashkenas: looking forward! :)
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[21:26] fangel: and no, I wouldn't think any of the chats works that way..
[21:26] kr1shnan: yeah...that too
[21:26] kr1shnan: but again...just trying things like...
[21:26] _mql: time for me to leave the office… getting some sleep ;)   cya!
[21:26] kr1shnan: http://url.to.my.nodechat/?nick=username& ...
[21:27] fangel: but it should be a fairly easy thing to code... if you have jQuery loaded, you should be able to do something like $(function(){ $('#input-field').val( _get_nick_from_whereever() ); $('#form').submit(); });
[21:27] fangel: (which is a very hacky way to do it, obviously.. but it should work)
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[21:28] fangel: the proper way to do it would be to tie it into the loading of the chat.. but that would take a bit more work (esp. from my part, as I don't know how they work)
[21:28] kr1shnan: thanks...
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[21:34] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js JavaScript for creating event-driven network apps is now part of Joyent, a Cloud hosting company: http://bit.ly/dn0o1j" -- Eduardo Romero. http://twitter.com/foxteck/status/2836516673949696
[21:34] _announcer: Twitter: "Anyone used or using node.js? Would like an opinion." -- Richard Durnall. http://twitter.com/rdurnall/status/2836641253171200
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[21:38] _announcer: Twitter: "Wondering about difficulty of node.js port for Mapnik Python bindings; would asynchronous tile generation be useful or better to just cache?" -- Tylor Sherman. http://twitter.com/tylorsherman/status/2837603724300289
[21:39] _announcer: Twitter: "http://vps.hypn.za.net:81 - Node.JS fun \:D/" -- Ross. http://twitter.com/Hypn/status/2837734175543296
[21:40] _announcer: Twitter: "Ok, anyone wants to build an xserver that renders into a canvas over node.js? :)" -- tobmaster. http://twitter.com/tobmaster/status/2838185616875520
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[21:41] _announcer: Twitter: "Been messing with node.js for 5 whole minutes and I'm already chugging the koolaid." -- Garrett Bartley. http://twitter.com/phragmunkee/status/2838379855089664
[21:41] _announcer: Twitter: "node.js: server-side Javascript implementation http://bit.ly/8Xl1C6" [fr] -- Alexis Erhardt. http://twitter.com/AlexisErhardt/status/2838393184583681
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[21:44] _announcer: Twitter: "I have an idea for a real-time web-based game using node.js and Redis  and I'm gonna need @demimismo to help me with it :)" -- M. G. Noriega. http://twitter.com/mgnoriega/status/2839045809905665
[21:47] _announcer: Twitter: "Playing with node.js and nStore library" -- Marc Lainez. http://twitter.com/mlainez/status/2839746153811968
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[21:51] _announcer: Twitter: "@analyticsmonk Node.js is cool but the list of "big" users means nothing unless they use it in relevant projects. Same for every technology." -- Emilian Bold. http://twitter.com/emilianbold/status/2840983922286592
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[21:54] _announcer: Twitter: "@ls_n nodejs' require('module') is synchronous, hence I'd like to load YUI modules synchronous too. I could help. /cc @tivac @yaypie" -- Bart Teeuwisse. http://twitter.com/bartt/status/2841609758576640
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[21:58] rabidsnail: I'm having trouble tailing a file. calling fs.read on my file descriptor seems to never call the callback: https://gist.github.com/673274
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[21:59] rbranson: -_-
[21:59] rbranson: v8: a = []; a += "b"; a
[21:59] v8bot: rbranson: "b"
[22:00] rabidsnail: Is there something more built-in that I can use to tail a file?
[22:01] rabidsnail: Instead of having to page the data into a buffer myself?
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[22:01] ryah_: wow. kind of working.
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[22:01] rbranson: ryah_: ?
[22:02] CIA-93: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07writev * r70d933a 10/ lib/net.js : use first and last bucket (+6 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/a6dGTa
[22:02] ryah_: rbranson: --^
[22:02] ryah_: kind of.
[22:02] bnoordhuis: rabidsnail: search the nodejs google group
[22:03] bnoordhuis: there was some discussion on tailing a while back
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[22:03] rbranson: a write queue?
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[22:04] ryah_: rbranson: https://github.com/ry/node/blob/70d933a63cbefa283986652b5540621014669d73/src/node_io_watcher.cc#L385
[22:04] rbranson: oh, nice!
[22:05] _announcer: Twitter: "@phragmunkee thanx..all i need is something new to play w/ re: node.js" -- Smitty. http://twitter.com/auximage/status/2844311737606144
[22:05] rabidsnail: The discusson in the group was for doing tail -n not tail -f
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[22:06] rabidsnail: There's another process continuously writing to the file, and I want to read the data as it's written.
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[22:08] techwraith: is there any way to take a look at the actual request that's being sent when I use: request.write(postData); ?
[22:08] bnoordhuis: rabidsnail: what about fs.readSync()?
[22:08] seanbo: Trying to get socket.io working: doing a client.broadcast(msg) and when I look at the msg in my client javascript is has a weird value of: 01234567891011121314
[22:08] seanbo: any ideas?
[22:08] bnoordhuis: i think fs.read() uses pread under the hood and that doesn't move the file offset
[22:09] bnoordhuis: techwraith: tcpdump?
[22:10] techwraith: ?
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[22:10] bnoordhuis: google it :)
[22:10] techwraith: k :)
[22:11] rabidsnail: bnoordhuis: That would explain the thunk getting called only once, but it isn't getting called at all
[22:11] techwraith: Ah, I was hoping to actually use js for it though
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[22:13] withanx: What's used for web frameworks in Node?
[22:13] aurynn: connect/express is pretty popular
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[22:15] withanx: MVC?
[22:15] Me1000 has joined the channel
[22:16] sriley: there is an example in express samples in how to implement mvc using express
[22:16] frodenius: doug crockford is cute reminiscing about his javascript history
[22:17] withanx: hm, nobody's created a full-blown Rails style framework, eh?
[22:17] withanx: or is working on one?
[22:17] withanx: just little Sinatra-esque stuff?
[22:18] rbranson: if you want rails, you should probably use rails
[22:18] withanx: I do, every day.
[22:18] rbranson: most people doing node.js work have moved much of the VC part to the client
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[22:19] bnoordhuis: rabidsnail: wait, let me test something quick
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[22:19] rbranson: so all you really need is a very light C/M to do data validaiton/authorization
[22:20] withanx: that's pretty much all we use Rails for anyhow
[22:20] withanx: using ExtJS
[22:22] withanx: is ExtJS used widely with Node?
[22:22] rbranson: I'm sure there's someone doing it, but I doubt it
[22:22] rbranson: so not widely
[22:23] rabidsnail: bnoordhuis: readSync seems to work (albeit slowly)
[22:23] evanmeagher: isaacs: did you have something like https://github.com/visionmedia/masteringnode in mind for the npm web docs issue?
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[22:26] isaacs: evanmeagher: whoa, that's pretty badass
[22:26] evanmeagher: yeah, it seemed apropos your todo.
[22:26] evanmeagher: i was poking for ways to contribute, so would that be something you'd be interested in?
[22:26] isaacs: evanmeagher: yeah, that'd be rad, but it should use the `npm install ronn` instead of gem install, and work on any doc folder.
[22:27] isaacs: evanmeagher: here's the site i want:
[22:27] isaacs: for every package in the npm registry, fetch its tarball, and unpack it.   (`npm cache add` does this pretty easily.)
[22:27] CIA-93: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07writev * ra695a74 10/ (lib/http.js lib/net.js): Fix ondrain. Kind of working. - http://bit.ly/aD9YKz
[22:27] CIA-93: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07writev * r6fa7800 10/ (src/node_buffer.cc src/node_buffer.h src/node_io_watcher.cc): Support encoding - http://bit.ly/9YAPMw
[22:27] ryah_: closer.
[22:27] isaacs: if it has a {"directories":{"doc":"blah"}} then run the markdown-to-html step on that, and expose those docs.
[22:27] isaacs: if it has a list of dependencies, provide a link to each of those packages.
[22:28] isaacs: also, let the user browse the source.
[22:28] evanmeagher: ah, cool
[22:28] isaacs: once that's there (and that's not trivial, but definitely conceive-able) let's talk about other ideas.
[22:28] evanmeagher: and expose this as a target in the makefile, presumably
[22:28] isaacs: evanmeagher: well, this wouldn't necessarily be a part of npm itself, that's what'd be so rad.
[22:28] evanmeagher: duh, nam
[22:28] evanmeagher: *nvm
[22:29] isaacs: npm would just be one of the things that it shows.
[22:29] isaacs: and maybe the default index would guide you over to npm's docs or something, whatever.
[22:29] brianc: ryah_: awesome. very much looking forward to that
[22:29] evanmeagher: right, it would generate a comprehensive doc for npm and all modules, essentially
[22:29] isaacs: but the automated "show all the docs for everythign in some humane way", that'd be fracking rad
[22:30] bnoordhuis: ryah_: c++ code should throw more descriptive exceptions
[22:30] bnoordhuis: "Bad argument" is seriously maddening
[22:30] evanmeagher: cool, i'll look into it. :)
[22:30] isaacs: once that works as a standalone thing, have it hook into the couchdb _changes feed and intelligently update its records for just the packages that change, when they change.
[22:30] _announcer: Twitter: "@loggly Would love to be in the private beta. As a Cloud Platform-as-a-Service for #nodejs company we've got a lot of server logs!" -- Nodejitsu. http://twitter.com/nodejitsu/status/2850657874747392
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[22:31] brianc: isaacs: what about generating api documentation from jsdoc markup in the code?
[22:31] isaacs: evanmeagher: for huge bonus points: the npm-website (or whatever) package should operate on a specific npm installation, so that i can do `npm install npm-site ; npm start npm-site` and then hit localhost:8000 to browse the packages installed on *just my system*
[22:31] rabidsnail: bnoordhuis: I figured it out. read doesn't work if you don't specify a position
[22:31] isaacs: brianc: that's one of those "once we're over this first bridge" ideas.
[22:31] isaacs: brianc: more people in the node community use markdown than jsdoc
[22:32] brianc: isaacs: totes. could be something left to package author. author => jsdoc to markdown. npm => markdown to html
[22:32] isaacs: but yeah, it'd be cool to say "ok, there's no doc directory, but there is jsdoc in teh code, let's use that" as some kind of v2 fallback
[22:32] brianc: isaacs: is there some particular format of markdown to use in markdown-to-html?
[22:32] isaacs: actually, even source browsing could be an optional later thing
[22:32] bnoordhuis: rabidsnail: with the sync or async version?
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[22:33] isaacs: brianc: for npm itself, my doc directory uses ronn.js-compatible markdown because i generate man pages with it
[22:33] brianc: I've been putting API documentation up on github for my library on the wiki section.  Anyone have a suggested better way?
[22:34] isaacs: brianc: well, if we had this kind of site running, i'd suggest creating a folder full of markdown files, and pointing the directories.doc at it in your package.json file
[22:34] isaacs: brianc: as it stands, we don't, so that's pointles.
[22:34] brianc: isaacs: makes total sense. :)
[22:35] brianc: not sure if you've done it, but I installed NVM and used NPM with NVM.  Works pretty nicely. 
[22:35] isaacs: brianc: yeah, it plays nice with nave, too
[22:35] rabidsnail: bnoordhuis: the async version doesn't work if you don't specify an offset
[22:36] isaacs: brianc: if you install npm inside the nave shell, then that npm's root and all its pacakges will be isolated from any other nave env
[22:36] brianc: isaacs: never seen nave before. checking it out now
[22:36] bnoordhuis: interesting
[22:36] _announcer: Twitter: "why am i not using yql more? https://gist.github.com/673315 (node.js example)" -- Dylan Clendenin. http://twitter.com/deepthawtz/status/2852260270841857
[22:36] bnoordhuis: fs.readSync() makes node use 100% cpu and run out of memory in < 2 minutes
[22:37] _announcer: Twitter: "@MichaelTao hi! js framework that allows your teams to scale based on your project's complexity: http://bit.ly/cMsFcN . also nodejs stuff ;)" -- Jaime Bueza. http://twitter.com/jbueza/status/2852413337763840
[22:37] rabidsnail: it works slightly better if you call it with setInterval instead of a loop
[22:37] bnoordhuis: yeah
[22:37] bnoordhuis: the silly thing is that it's not the js that is taking 100% cpu
[22:37] ryah_: bnoordhuis: you mean the good thing :)
[22:38] bnoordhuis: it's happening in c++ land
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[22:38] ryah_: thus just another bug :)
[22:38] bnoordhuis: want a test case?
[22:38] ryah_: i would - im massively behind, so it'd be better if you email me
[22:38] bnoordhuis: will do
[22:39] ryah_: i've given like 5 talks in the last two weeks
[22:39] bnoordhuis: yeah?
[22:39] ryah_: one more next week and them im done :)
[22:39] ryah_: forever
[22:39] rbranson: forever!
[22:39] bnoordhuis: are there slides or videos or something?
[22:39] _announcer: Twitter: "Interesting use of node.js&gt; http://swarmation.com/" [es] -- eveevans. http://twitter.com/eveevans/status/2853004382314496
[22:39] rbranson: ryah_: just start delegating
[22:40] ryah_: bnoordhuis: they were just the same old node introduction talks i've been giving all year
[22:40] tanepiper: i gave a talk last night :)  hopfully the video should be up soon
[22:40] ryah_: ntohign too interesting
[22:40] bnoordhuis: ah okay, nothing new then
[22:40] rbranson: pretty much everyone who can know knows evented rox now
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[22:41] seanbo: Does anyone know how I can set-up the routes in Express to be able to access the socket.io SWF and JS?
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[22:42] _announcer: Twitter: "Time to jump off a sinking Java? A turning point for scripting languages, going back to Perl and Python? Want nodejs also welcome." [no] -- Knut-Olav Hoven. http://twitter.com/hovenko/status/2853480385478656
[22:43] sriley: withanx: well theres a few frameworks, geddy looks ok from a quick look
[22:44] tempas: html can only make GET and POST requests?
[22:44] tempas: through links?
[22:44] ryah_: tempas: yes
[22:44] _announcer: Twitter: "Added a sample lsusb script to node-usb. Works like a charme :) #node-usb #node.js" -- Schakko. http://twitter.com/schakko/status/2853746321129472
[22:44] brianc: tempas: most browsers can only make GET and POST requests. through links you only make a GET request.
[22:44] tempas: and through Forms POST or GET right?
[22:44] ryah_: if there was any sanity in the world HTTP would restrict itself to only POST and GET.
[22:45] tempas: ryah_: why?
[22:45] tempas: put and delete are bad?
[22:45] ryah_: simple subset.
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[22:46] tempas: trying to create a framework for REST 
[22:46] tempas: and try to figure out how it should be done
[22:46] gkatsev: ryah_: if there was any sanity in the world people would stop using POST to get data back from the server.
[22:46] tempas: anyone has read about this: http://www.crummy.com/writing/speaking/2008-QCon/act3.html
[22:46] tempas: Hypermedia controls
[22:46] tempas: like returning a remote control with buttons you can click
[22:46] DoNaLd`: ryah_: hi, if you wish, you can add to your list of applications, which using nodejs also my litle utility .. git irc announcer :) https://github.com/donaldinos/GitArista
[22:46] mjr_: All of those extra HTTP methods are pretty crazy.
[22:46] rbranson: I like DELETE, but PUT is a little questionable
[22:46] mjr_: Thanks to WebDAV, etc
[22:47] tempas: maybe there should only be POST
[22:47] tempas: or no .. not even that .. only Request and Response
[22:47] tempas: like In and Out
[22:47] tempas: nothing more
[22:47] brianc: GET, POST, and SPANK
[22:47] mjr_: I think there should be one where you have a request body, and one where you don't
[22:47] bnoordhuis: i liked the web much better when there was only GET
[22:47] bnoordhuis: and no request headers
[22:47] mjr_: Everything else can be determined by headers or body content.
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[22:47] brianc: for when your server is misbehaving 
[22:47] bnoordhuis: i miss gopher :(
[22:48] rbranson: I like the idea that DELETE explicitly says "plz delete this resource"
[22:48] brianc: i miss the sun
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[22:48] rbranson: but PUT seems excessive
[22:48] mjr_: and archie
[22:48] tempas: it should be like OOP
[22:48] mjr_: and being old
[22:48] bnoordhuis: yeah, archie rocked
[22:48] gkatsev: bnoordhuis: firefox is a gopher client. Also, you can download all of gopher in a 60GB torrent, i think.
[22:48] rbranson: POST should be create or update
[22:48] tempas: resource = object ... parameters = arugments
[22:48] tempas: that'is
[22:48] tempas: thats it
[22:48] tanepiper: I find PUT handy in my app https://gist.github.com/0896e77475e4630926bb
[22:48] bnoordhuis: gkatsev: i converted my job's site to gopher when i had an hour to kill :)
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[22:49] c4milo: creationix: u there ? 
[22:49] creationix: c4milo: yeah, why?
[22:50] c4milo: are you guys continue working on connect right ? even if you are working now for Palm 
[22:50] creationix: c4milo: some here and there
[22:50] creationix: tj probably does more since express depends on it
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[22:51] tempas: maybe SOAP is good?
[22:51] tempas: just Post to methods .. like OOP
[22:51] tempas: but maybe its too complicated?
[22:51] tempas: if they finetuned it maybe it could be better than REST
[22:51] c4milo: creationix:  ahaha poor tj the more you release the more you have to maintain :s
[22:51] brianc: SOAP is the very meaning of complicated
[22:51] creationix: c4milo: there hasn't been active development for some time now though
[22:51] creationix: c4milo: it was designed to be externally extensible on purpose
[22:52] _announcer: Twitter: "Javascript server-side with node.js http://nodejs.org/" [fr] -- JM Wyttenbach. http://twitter.com/jmwyttenbach/status/2856118468481024
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[22:52] creationix: c4milo: people can write their own modules to replace any or all the built-in ones
[22:52] c4milo: creationix: aha
[22:52] _announcer: Twitter: "In honor of tonight's evening of Node.js, I used Faker to spam the spammers. What a satisfying way to learn more node. ;)" -- Marc Grabanski. http://twitter.com/1Marc/status/2856212605435905
[22:52] bnoordhuis: fs.readSync() busy loop test case if anyone is interested: https://gist.github.com/673377
[22:52] bnoordhuis: if someone could check if it's not something on my side
[22:52] bnoordhuis: well, that'd be great
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[22:54] _announcer: Twitter: "Blogged: node.js socket.io + + API http://blog.zacharyvoase.com/2010/11/11/sockets-and-nodes-i/ streaming twitter" [nl] -- Zack Voase. http://twitter.com/zacharyvoase/status/2856720648904704
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[22:58] _announcer: Twitter: "Last jjamnalttaemada node.js are reported as non blocking server. Are a lot of interesting information on the development server. Anybody ready to proceed once the data is shared in-house." [ko] -- juho lee(이주호). http://twitter.com/neozest/status/2857673636716544
[22:58] _announcer: Twitter: "Dear Yahoo engineers; We know you love javascript as much as we do @storify (we run on #NodeJS). Ping me if you are looking for a job." -- Xavier Damman. http://twitter.com/xdamman/status/2857737121693697
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[23:00] _announcer: Twitter: "Why use "closure"? - How To Node - NodeJS: http://howtonode.org/why-use-closure" -- Aggelos Karalias. http://twitter.com/mehieltwit/status/2858296637661184
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[23:03] _announcer: Twitter: "@xdamman I didn't think you were looking for node.js developers?" -- Micheil Smith. http://twitter.com/miksago/status/2858885618606080
[23:03] tempas: Maybe REST is not good? It was based on something simple we did before..request a file, and the file is the response, now when we have Websockets and more advanced web applications, maybe we need something that suits today's needs?
[23:04] tempas: to be constrained to PUT DELETE POST GET seem to hold us back
[23:04] echosystm: lol still going on about REST tempas ?
[23:04] ambert: \join #opzi
[23:04] tempas: echosystm: yeah =)
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[23:04] tempas: reading all the articles you guys provided .. interesting 
[23:04] tempas: Hypermedia controlling
[23:05] echosystm: tempas: most applications do nothing more than CRUD (create, read, update, delete) operations
[23:06] Aria: And anything fits in a POST
[23:06] echosystm: REST does exactly that
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[23:06] Aria: And anything idempotent fits in a GET
[23:06] Aria: You can make whole query services! Look at how SPARQL protocol is defined!
[23:06] seanbo: god wtf
[23:06] tempas: whats that
[23:06] echosystm: the point of REST is that if youre going to use HTTP, use it as much as you can
[23:06] seanbo: wasted an entire day on NPM's version of socket.io
[23:06] seanbo: as opposed to cloning it 
[23:06] echosystm: its stupid to add the bloat of HTTP to an RPC mechanism
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[23:07] echosystm: if youre going to use HTTP, use REST
[23:07] tempas: yeah 
[23:07] echosystm: if youre going to use raw TCP, use RPC, SOAP, RMI etc.
[23:08] echosystm: with web sockets, it will become more sane to use RPC
[23:08] echosystm: but for me the main value of web sockets is to augment REST with realtime data
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[23:09] tempas: echosystm: but we cant use the HTTP verbs for websockets
[23:09] tempas: does that mean REST cant be implemented on websockets?
[23:09] echosystm: thats not what i meant
[23:09] echosystm: you build a REST service
[23:09] echosystm: then you use web sockets for alerting clients of state changes
[23:10] echosystm: eg. a client might subscribe to wss://whatever.com/accounts/
[23:10] echosystm: to listen to all REST events on the accounts collection
[23:10] echosystm: and recieve messages like...
[23:10] echosystm: {event: 'delete', id: '8'}
[23:11] evanmeagher: isaacs: this is more stupidity on my part, but i found a minor pain point with npm
[23:12] isaacs: evanmeagher: awesome.  what's the pain point?
[23:12] evanmeagher: it seems that if you `npm link` a module, rm -rf the module dir, and then try to `npm uninstall` it, you get an error
[23:12] evanmeagher: or at least an error telling me to file an issue
[23:13] isaacs: hm.  yes, that would be a problem.
[23:13] isaacs: you know what i should do, is copy out the package.json whenever you install something, and use that rather than going to .npm/name/ver/package/package.json
[23:14] isaacs: or, at the very least, `npm rm` should just go ahead and blow away anything that doesn't have a readable package.json file
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[23:14] italic: anyone know how to close a client connection on the server using socket.io?
[23:16] _announcer: Twitter: "A good introduction to node.js by @ @ eutobar teachers in some @ siedrix contributions. http://bit.ly/b8KYqA" [es] -- Christian Van Der H. http://twitter.com/cvander/status/2862313770065920
[23:17] evanmeagher: isaacs: exactly. instead of erroring upon file-not-found, just remove the npm entry.
[23:17] isaacs: evanmeagher: the issue there is that the package might've installed some bins or node modules or whatever, which will still be kicking around...
[23:18] tempas: echosystm: lets say i order something from a web service .. so I POST /ebook/1/order {credit card info , name, adress etc ...}  .. how do I know when to make a GET request to get it .. maybe it takes 10 days before the ebook is ready for me to GET .. through with a GET link?
[23:18] tempas: through email i meant
[23:18] isaacs: evanmeagher: if i copy out the package.json, then even if you delete the folder, it'll still be able to clean up properly
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[23:18] evanmeagher: ah right, so in that case you could walk through any deps and decide whether to nuke them or not.
[23:18] isaacs: right
[23:19] isaacs: if you did npm rm --recursive
[23:19] _announcer: Twitter: "Chetan Surpur | Why Node.js Is Totally Awesome http://bit.ly/aBsyye" -- Joshva. http://twitter.com/joshva/status/2862919985397760
[23:19] isaacs: btw, that is SUPER handy^
[23:19] isaacs: npm rm connect yui-core --recursive
[23:19] isaacs: blammo
[23:19] evanmeagher: ah cool
[23:19] evanmeagher: is --recursive only for rm? it's not listed in the man page
[23:20] isaacs: ah, yeah... it's on `npm help config`
[23:20] tempas: echosystm: or say that it takes between 10 minutes to 1 hour for me to get it .. i make a POST /ebooks/1/order. Wouldnt it be if the ebook was displayed automatically somehow without me using a GET?
[23:20] isaacs: evanmeagher: i really need to go through the command help pages and add the configs that they care about.
[23:20] evanmeagher: i feel like it should be mentioned in rm/uninstall as well. was factoring out config options deliberate?
[23:21] evanmeagher: right
[23:21] echosystm: tempas: i dont understand why this problem has anythign to do with REST
[23:21] _announcer: Twitter: "@xdamman Hey cut that out! We're runnin some NodeJS game up in here as well." -- Sunnyvale. http://twitter.com/rhyolight/status/2863540281020416
[23:21] echosystm: they submit their order, they get emailed when it is ready
[23:21] echosystm: whats the issue?
[23:21] tempas: no im just trying to figure out the best implementation
[23:21] tempas: how HTTP/REST is combined with Websockets
[23:22] echosystm: you wouldnt use websockets for this
[23:22] echosystm: you would use websockets for alerting of STATE changes
[23:22] echosystm: not sending an email to alert someone that an ebook is ready for download
[23:22] echosystm: anyway, i gotta run
[23:22] echosystm: ciao
[23:22] tempas: ókay ciao
[23:22] _announcer: Twitter: "@MichaelTao JavaScript :)) I'm seasoned in php, python, ruby, lua, java but with server-side JavaScript (NodeJS) becoming popular ... &lt;3 JS" -- Jaime Bueza. http://twitter.com/jbueza/status/2863843134939137
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[23:27] ledil: hello, how can I store my clients in a hashtable ?
[23:28] ledil: so that I can get a client from the hashtable to send a specific message to that client ?
[23:29] jashkenas: table[clientid].send(message)
[23:29] rbranson: just use an object
[23:29] rbranson: clients = {}
[23:29] ledil: myclients = {}; myclient["foo"] = client ?
[23:29] rbranson: yup
[23:29] ledil: and then myclient['foo'].send(message) ?
[23:29] rbranson: yup
[23:29] ledil: is this the right context ?
[23:29] rbranson: huh?
[23:29] ledil: the right syntax, I mean
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[23:30] rbranson: i mean, assuming "foo" is your client's unique identifier and client is something you can do a .send on
[23:30] ledil: yes
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[23:34] _announcer: Twitter: "Node.js development is a lot nicer with @Cloud9IDE" -- Chris Jaure. http://twitter.com/chrisjaure/status/2866862849261568
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[23:36] evanmeagher: how would you serve raw html via node?
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[23:37] evanmeagher: response.write/end provide content for the body, but how would you send along the full html response?
[23:37] SubStack: evanmeagher: var connect = require('connect'); connect.createServer(connect.staticProvider(__dirname + '/static')).listen(80)
[23:38] SubStack: also: http://expressjs.com/ 
[23:38] evanmeagher: thanks
[23:38] SubStack: especially http://expressjs.com/guide.html with res.render()
[23:38] _announcer: Twitter: "via Del.icio.us : Chetan Surpur | Why Node.js Is Totally Awesome:  http://bit.ly/cEYzBw #social #networking" -- Karen Kinnaman. http://twitter.com/KarenKinnaman/status/2867787055763456
[23:38] SubStack: there are lots of ways to do it of course
[23:38] evanmeagher: yeah, i've used express. was just wondering if there was something i was missing out of core
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[23:39] SubStack: oh right also you can s/connect/express/g and it'll work
[23:39] SubStack: since express is just a superset of connect
[23:39] evanmeagher: right
[23:39] _announcer: Twitter: "Gave a talk last night on node.js, Redis, and node_pcap. It was fun.  Instead of slides I used TextMate and Terminal. http://bit.ly/d54pRL" -- Matt Ranney. http://twitter.com/mranney/status/2868035891236864
[23:39] SubStack: I feel very... awake today
[23:39] SubStack: only had one mug of coffee even
[23:39] mjr_: Twitter's streaming API is so damn fast.
[23:39] SubStack: and some oolong tea
[23:39] SubStack: mjr_: I know right?
[23:40] SubStack: streaming++
[23:40] mjr_: It's amazing
[23:40] v8bot:  SubStack has given a beer to streaming. streaming now has 1 beers.
[23:40] mjr_: I clicked "send" in the Twitter client, and then my IRC client beeped, like, immediately.
[23:40] evanmeagher: oolong++
[23:40] v8bot:  evanmeagher has given a beer to oolong. oolong now has 1 beers.
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[23:41] _announcer: Twitter: "(I'll be more cheerful when I'm back on node.js, I promise :) )" -- Spencer Tipping. http://twitter.com/spencertipping/status/2868421570076672
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[23:41] SubStack: I wonder what twitter uses behind the scenes
[23:42] mjr_: They've given a few presentations where they talk about it
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[23:42] mjr_: Lots of scala to run Kestrel.
[23:42] justin_: SubStack: it's mostly scala, ruby, and javascript
[23:42] SubStack: yeah looking ta their github page
[23:42] SubStack: *at
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[23:50] rbranson: twitter uses node to do less -> css conversion :O WEB SCALE
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[23:51] ledil: ive got another question, Im using nodestalker, how can I do a repeat of "reserve" ?
[23:52] _announcer: Twitter: "@tommorris I'm wondering if I can plugin Node.js in to VIm. That would make me excited." -- Tom. http://twitter.com/sh1mmer/status/2871187419955200
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[23:54] _announcer: Twitter: "Announcing a Node.js Book Project · YDN Blog:" -- Bob Patterson Jr. http://twitter.com/bobpattersonjr/status/2871885536698369
[23:57] isaacs1: evanmeagher: hey, if you're serious about wanting to build that npm thing, email me if you run into any snags or places where npm itself could smooth your path a bit.
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[23:57] evanmeagher: will do :)
[23:57] evanmeagher: i'm poking around with ronnjs to get things started
[23:58] isaacs1: it's one of the best thing that a person could do for the node community right now, i think.
[23:58] evanmeagher: glad to hear
[23:58] _announcer: Twitter: "Cool, I just got node.js running in Windows #Azure. What should I do with it?" -- Steve Marx. http://twitter.com/smarx/status/2872874738126849
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[23:59] stagas: at last!
[23:59] stagas: http://hots.stagas.com
[23:59] stagas: sockets
[23:59] rbranson: what am I looking at?
[23:59] stagas: just hover on the one you like