[00:00] bentomas1: gotta run, this is interesting though!
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[00:00] inimino: but unless it handles asyncronous exceptions, there's no point...
[00:00] inimino: that's trivially doable now with a try/catch
[00:00] micheil: benw: if there's an exception thrown from the request listener, and there's an unhandledException listener, that event will be emitted
[00:01] benw: micheil: Like inimino said, that doesn't buy me anything.
[00:01] micheil: okay
[00:02] benw: Let's handle the case where handleRequest calls setTimeout with a callback which is supposed to respond to the request, but instead throws.
[00:02] inimino: but it would be nice to see a real-world case where this is needed before bikeshedding how it should work
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[00:03] micheil: true
[00:03] benw: inimino: Ok, let's pretend instead of setTimeout it's actually calling some I/O functions that might throw, with an eventual callback that responds to the request.
[00:03] _ry: req.addL("unhandledExcdeption", function () { res.sendHeader(500); res.sendBody("error"); res.finish(); })
[00:04] inimino: benw: which I/O functions that might throw?
[00:04] benw: req.addL("unhandledExcdeption", function (e) { res.sendHeader(500); res.sendBody(e.stack); res.finish(); })
[00:04] inimino: benw: throwing an exception should be exceptional
[00:05] benw: Ok, I get it exceptions are bad. But they happen.
[00:05] inimino: benw: that's why to me this is a fringe edge case
[00:05] inimino: benw: if you're throwing exceptions and not catching them often enough that you really want this for a better user experience, you're doing something wrong IMHO
[00:06] benw: inimino: The point of exceptions is that they bubble up the stack to a point that knows how to handle them appropriately.
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[00:06] benw: Because we're async, that stack no longer exists.
[00:06] _ry: yeah - "unhandledException" doesn't buy much
[00:06] stevestmartin: im not following how anything would need to be baked into core
[00:07] inimino: sure, that's why you have things that have two callbacks or emit two different events one for failure, one for success
[00:07] stevestmartin: if your making a framework, then you can wrap the low level functions with your own, and use events
[00:07] inimino: that's why I asked "which I/O functions that might throw"
[00:07] benw: The Sentinel idea (open to a better name) is about creating a different kind of stack specifically for this purpose.
[00:07] inimino: because generally if you call an async I/O functions and it throws, then there's a bug
[00:08] micheil: benw: you'd have to re-write a hell of a lot, including things like promises...
[00:08] stevestmartin: nothing stops him from wrapping them
[00:08] benw: micheil: I don't think they'd need to change at all
[00:08] stevestmartin: i mean if your going to give developers abstractions, you might as well go all the way
[00:09] micheil: benw: if my promise throws an exception, then sentinel probably can't find that
[00:09] benw: This may well involve V8 core hacking that is beyond me, but I'd like to think through the desired semantics.
[00:09] benw: Why is promise different from any other callback?
[00:10] micheil: because, it's async, like you said, it's not working on a stack
[00:10] micheil: you have no real way of catching any errors there
[00:10] inimino: if you do something like posix.cat("non-existing-file") it's not going to throw, it's going to emit an error event
[00:11] stevestmartin: i think your trying to bring a mindset of a different language into this one
[00:11] benw: I'm not proposing Sentinel would deal with unhandled error callbacks
[00:11] micheil: also, if I have code which contains a syntax error or something, that too can't be caught
[00:11] benw: Actually I think syntax errors throw exceptions
[00:11] inimino: benw: yes
[00:11] benw: That's exactly the sort of thing I want to catch
[00:12] micheil: yeah, at process.addListener("unhandledException") level
[00:12] stevestmartin: pretend exceptions never happen, pretend all you have is events, try/catch doesnt exist, how would you solve it?
[00:12] micheil: however, production code shouldn't have any syntax errors, those should be caught in testing
[00:12] inimino: benw: can you show an example of a scenario where you need to catch that?
[00:13] benw: It seems everyone is against me :)
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[00:13] inimino: yes, if you're deploying code that doesn't even compile, that's a pretty grave error
[00:14] benw: It's a dynamic language, lots of stuff won't blow up until runtime
[00:14] inimino: I recommend Joe Armstrong's talk: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Systems-that-Never-Stop-Joe-Armstrong
[00:14] benw: Software has bugs, even production code.
[00:15] micheil: I don't think javascript is really that dynamic, as it has to be compiled by an interpreter
[00:15] benw: Bugs that might not be tickled until someone submits a form with just the right string.
[00:15] benw: Which currently has the potential to be a denial of service attack that brings down the whole server.
[00:15] inimino: (recommended to everyone)
[00:15] inimino: benw: sure, that's why you have monitoring, you record incidents when they occur, and you find them and fix the defects
[00:15] _ry: i think it's a good point. how do you design a web framework, where whatever error people might make in thier handler - it will return a 500 status code
[00:15] benw: Constraining the damage to a single connection is easier in the thread-per-connection world.
[00:16] stephenlb: inimino++ for the Armstrong link
[00:16] benw: I'm excited about node, I'm all for async
[00:16] benw: I've been writing event-driven async servers the hard way for a while
[00:16] inimino: benw: if you want uptime and you don't have monitoring and restart, you're already doing it wrong
[00:16] _ry: it would be nice to have a stack of closures somehow
[00:17] _ry: which would be different than the execution stack
[00:17] benw: _ry: Exactly
[00:17] inimino: one of the things in that talk is that processes are the layer at which you isolate errors
[00:17] inimino: ("process" isn't necessarily an OS process)
[00:18] benw: The first argument to new Sentinel() is essentially the catch block for that persistent top-level closure in which future callbacks run.
[00:18] inimino: but in the case of node, if you want to write a Web server that always gives 500 regardless of what was loaded, you use a worker and hand connections to it
[00:19] benw: Creating a Sentinel pushes onto the exception-handling stack, for the current execution context and for the contexts of all callbacks that are registered by it.
[00:21] inimino: so if we're going to add some features, let's add a good worker implementation that you can send sockets to :)
[00:24] _ry: benw: it's not clear to me how the Sentinel would work
[00:24] _ry: what i could imagine is having .. is a stack of event emitters
[00:25] _ry: process creates server. server creates req. req creates setTimeout
[00:25] _ry: i'm not really sure how that'd work...
[00:26] _ry: well .. okay, i can kind of imagine it
[00:26] benw: :)
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[00:26] _ry: you'd have a stack: var eventEmitterStack = []
[00:26] inimino: you can maintain a shadow stack with each thing that puts events on the stack, and then swap it in...
[00:26] benw: I can see difficulties preventing the sentinel stack from growing forever
[00:26] _ry: inimino: yeah
[00:27] _ry: it would be behind the scenes
[00:27] _ry: then when you get an exception in an event
[00:27] _ry: you call unhandledException event on the top eventemitter
[00:27] inimino: ...on every new event loop entry
[00:27] inimino: kind of ugly
[00:28] _ry: if the unhandleException isn't there, you go down the stack
[00:28] _ry: if nothing catches it then you exit the program
[00:28] inimino: yeah
[00:29] _ry: seems kind of ugly.
[00:29] _ry: eemitter.catch(Error, function (eventName, exception) { })
[00:29] _ry: shrug.
[00:30] inimino: yeah
[00:30] _ry: but in that way you could respond with 500 depsite errors in the handlers
[00:30] inimino: yes
[00:31] _ry: well. maybe it's not so bad.. 
[00:31] _ry: a generalized unhandledException
[00:31] inimino: I'd rather use a worker for it
[00:31] _ry: well - can't start new processes for each req
[00:32] inimino: no, but you don't need to either
[00:32] inimino: you can reuse them
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[00:33] inimino: (until something crashes it)
[00:33] CIA-78: node: 03Ryan Dahl 07develop * r5547450 10/ ChangeLog : credit Erich in ChangeLog - http://bit.ly/4Qi9fM
[00:35] _ry: oh okay
[00:36] _ry: but then processes can only handle one request at a time
[00:36] _ry: how's this done in the web browser?
[00:36] _ry: what happens if you throw in setTimeout?
[00:36] inimino: it's just like what node does currently
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[00:42] benw: I should go.
[00:42] benw: Thanks all for indulging me in this conversation.  :)
[00:43] benw: _ry: BTW, who's paying you to work on this?
[00:44] _ry: benw: I work for Joyent
[00:45] benw: Cool, well thanks, you're doing a great job.
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[00:46] _ry: thanks
[00:46] ahminus: _ry: Just came across node.js while doing some research... I recognized your email address from the libev mailing list :)
[00:46] _ry: ahminus: :)
[00:47] ahminus: I am using it for a Flash MMOG backend.
[00:47] micheil: _ry: I was wondering who you worked for, nice to know :)
[00:48] _ry: ahminus: libev or node?
[00:48] ahminus: libev
[00:48] _ry: ahminus: cool
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[00:50] stevestmartin: whats the best way to get an object to extend from EventEmitter
[00:50] ahminus: I'm fighting all the same battles everyone else bumps into trying to do stress testing...
[00:50] RayMorgan: stevestmartin: process.inherit(obj, process.EventEmitter);   (if I remember correctly)
[00:51] RayMorgan: might be inherits
[00:51] micheil: inherits
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[00:54] _ry: someone should write a simple message queue 
[00:54] _ry: server
[00:54] _ry: amqp-like but with a non-shit protocol
[00:54] _ry: topic exchange
[00:55] _ry: and persistent queues
[00:56] ahminus: Yeah.  I researched all the various MQs out there at my previous gig.
[00:57] ahminus: Rabbit seems to be the defacto choice is your use matches its feature set.
[00:57] ahminus: I was intrigued by ZeroMQ, but the lack of durable queues is a problem.
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[01:01] _ry: topic \r\n (hex-body-length) \r\n (opaque body)
[01:01] micheil: hmm.. 
[01:02] micheil: _ry: write a spec for it, and I'll try and implement it
[01:03] _ry: could make the couchdb of message queues
[01:03] _ry: assign arbitrary js functions to the queues to grab messages
[01:03] micheil: hmm..
[01:04] _ry: CREATE_QUEUE xxx \r\n function (topic) { return true; }
[01:04] _ry: ^-- a queue named "xxx" which grabs all messages
[01:05] _ry: shrug
[01:05] micheil: _ry: wouldn't it be simpler to work with basic data types?
[01:05] erichocean: it's really easy to implement durable message queues with Redis
[01:05] micheil: eg, ENQUEUE topic data
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[01:06] _ry: erichocean: is there a way to subscribe in redis?
[01:06] _ry: erichocean: to a queue?
[01:06] erichocean: a Twitter clone is the "hello world" ap for redis
[01:06] erichocean: so, yes
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[01:07] sktrdie: is node written completely in C?
[01:07] technoweenie: no redis doesnt have subscriptions
[01:07] sktrdie: or C++?
[01:07] technoweenie: its not event based, you just pop an item off a list though
[01:08] sktrdie: since v8 is written in C++, i would think that also nodejs was
[01:08] erichocean: also, see Resque by the GitHub people
[01:08] erichocean: also implemented on top of Redis
[01:08] micheil: 
ACTION would have to read more on amqp and such first..

[01:08] ahminus: AMQP and XMPP are both pretty crummy.
[01:08] ahminus: So, you'd have to have subscribers polling?
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[01:08] micheil: sktrdie: C++/C and JavaScript
[01:09] sktrdie: micheil: that's weird, why would it use C?
[01:09] micheil: ahminus: why not just persist a connection between server and client?
[01:09] sktrdie: if there's C++ libs
[01:09] micheil: sktrdie: I forget which it is.
[01:09] ahminus: Persisting the connection is orthogonal.
[01:10] sktrdie: and it's doubtful it would write anything in javascript
[01:10] micheil: sktrdie: why don't you browse the source to the project?
[01:10] erichocean: Redis is a data structure server, so you build things like subscriptions on top of Redis (which, again, is fairly trivial to do)
[01:11] micheil: that'll tell you what it's written in.
[01:11] ahminus: erich: Maybe... but, a scalable solution might be very non-trivial.
[01:12] erichocean: Redis scales the same way memcached does: consistent hashing
[01:12] ahminus: Yeah, but if you're building an MQ on top of it, you have to solve all the same problems the existing MQs do...
[01:12] ahminus: And even ZeroMQ falls over when you start creating hundreds of thousands of exchanges.
[01:12] joshbuddy: I didn't think Redis had a blocking pop yet.
[01:13] erichocean: that's in the latest release
[01:13] erichocean: well, not release, dev branch
[01:13] joshbuddy: erichocean: aye, i suppose i'm referring to the current release, i've been told its coming.
[01:13] joshbuddy: i wonder if it will be close to beanstalk's speed.
[01:13] erichocean: it's the same speed as memcached in my tests
[01:14] erichocean: so, faster
[01:14] joshbuddy: i mean, as a queue
[01:14] joshbuddy: beanstalkd is a work queue
[01:15] ahminus: I did a bunch of research of the KV stores and ended up with TokyoCabinet/Tyrant, so far.
[01:15] erichocean: ahminus: that's nice to, just not as flexible as Redis
[01:15] joshbuddy: tokyo is very nice ... lack of tooling, but very nice.
[01:15] erichocean: it also has corruption problems if it's killed in the middle of a save (or so I've heard)
[01:15] ahminus: Yeah.  I was much more concerned about stability and robustness than the flexibility.
[01:15] ahminus: My use case is pretty limited.
[01:16] cheapRoc: tokyo needs true open dev
[01:16] cheapRoc: author is a wizard, but needs to share and delegate dev responsibilties
[01:16] joshbuddy: at postrank, we experimented with tokyo as a middle layer for persisting far in the future jobs from beanstalk.. very fast, but when things get corrupt, you're kind of screwed.
[01:16] ahminus: And basically, all the people I trust about this stuff all kinda told me the same story: they evaluated a bunch of them, wrote a bunch of stress tests, and concluded that almost none of them were reliable enough for real production use (for them) but TokyoCabinet was the closest.
[01:17] ahminus: Hrm.
[01:18] ahminus: Maybe I'll be back to shovelling crap at MySQL again :)
[01:18] cheapRoc: there's plenty of people on the Tokyo mailing list using it in high vol prod, from what I read
[01:18] ahminus: Yeah, it's being used in various capacities in production.  The people I'm referring to didn't think it was ready enough for them.
[01:18] joshbuddy: i wrote a memcached front end to tokyo.. it was very fast, almost as fast as memcache, i'm very impressed with it
[01:18] joshbuddy: with tokyo cabinet that is.
[01:19] ahminus: Josh: good to know.
[01:19] cheapRoc: that's not shocking
[01:19] ahminus: I'll be using it to persist a crap-ton of saved game state, so, it's not super "mission critical", but it would suck to lose too much state due to corruption.
[01:20] cheapRoc: I've jus worked on, and spec'd ruby-tokyotyrant c wrapper.. I enjoy it, but not prod use yet
[01:21] joshbuddy: i wrote a ruby interface to dystopia before.. i got really wonky results out of it .. i was very disappointed, and communicating with the author was really tough. :(
[01:21] joshbuddy: because tokyo dystopia running well would be awesome...
[01:21] cheapRoc: joshbuddy: Yup
[01:22] cheapRoc: compare that to redis author, that guys a hacker from what I can tell
[01:22] erichocean-away: ahminus: Cassandra is *really* nice
[01:23] erichocean-away: but you need a fairly high-end server setup to survive crashes
[01:23] erichocean-away: it's fast as hell though
[01:23] joshbuddy: I think I need to get the blocking pop version of redis out, write a beanstalk front end to it, and put it through its paces... need to really benchmark it hard.
[01:23] cheapRoc: Cassandra scared me away when I read evan's ec2 warning :<
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[01:25] ahminus: Yeah, the biggest downside to Cassandra is Java :/
[01:26] joshbuddy: did you guys see ... was it, kufufs?
[01:27] joshbuddy: this one: http://github.com/etolabo/kumofs
[01:27] joshbuddy: certainly looks interesting.
[01:27] ahminus: Yeah, I wish there were FEWER choices rather than more. :)
[01:28] ahminus: That's build on TokyoCabinet.
[01:28] ahminus: Er, built.
[01:28] joshbuddy: tokyocabinet is such a great swiss army knife though.
[01:28] isaacs: anyone want a simple "which of these functions is faster" type benchmarking script? http://github.com/isaacs/node-bench
[01:28] isaacs: enjoy.
[01:28] joshbuddy: thanks isaacs!
[01:29] isaacs: joshbuddy: np
[01:29] joshbuddy: oh, i got content caputres working today .. i can't think of anything else i really need for a templating layer. i think i'll put a haml style parser on it, but its rocking pretty hard.
[01:29] joshbuddy: time to build a full web framework in node i think
[01:30] joshbuddy: and i put in those namespacing things you mentioned isaacs, thanks for that.
[01:30] stephenlb: headed to CBS JS meetup for good times
[01:31] joshbuddy: in case anyone cares about templating .. here is my latest example in node.js.. 
[01:31] joshbuddy: http://github.com/joshbuddy/emjay/blob/master/examples/nodejs/test.mjs
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[04:16] isaacs: hey, unix wizards...
[04:16] isaacs: is it possible to have a shebang that points to a node program?
[04:16] isaacs: ie, #!/path/to/program (then some javascript here)
[04:16] deanlandolt: isaacs: definitely ping ashb
[04:16] stevestmartin: yes
[04:16] isaacs: where /path/to/program then has a shebang of its own pointing to node.
[04:16] isaacs: it's not seeming to work for me.
[04:17] deanlandolt: there's some maddening shebang handling in linux
[04:17] isaacs: it seems that if the interpreter isn't a binary, it's falling back to sh
[04:17] stevestmartin: #!/usr/bin/env node
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[04:17] isaacs: stevestmartin: sure, but what i really want to execute is /usr/local/bin/node myprogram myotherprogram
[04:18] isaacs: then have node execute "myprogram" with "myotherprogram" as the arg
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[04:18] isaacs: but it's stubbornly refusing to use my interpreted script as an interpreter.
[04:18] isaacs: ashb: you around?  the kids in here say you know about the unixez.
[04:20] isaacs: i mean, i could write a little c wrapper around it, i guess.
[04:20] isaacs: seems silly though.
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[13:02] tlynn: What databases (if any) does node.js support currently?
[13:03] blackdog: I'm using orlandov's mongo driver, not in production, but it's working nicely, thought incomplete
[13:03] blackdog: though
[13:03] blackdog: there's a postgresql from ry, and the sqlite driver is being actively worked on
[13:04] tlynn: No MySQL?
[13:04] blackdog: mysql via some wrapper
[13:04] blackdog: from the new york times, not native
[13:04] tlynn: Thanks, that's very useful.
[13:04] blackdog: also a js redis driver
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